If you’ve been paying any attention at all to the real estate social media/networking space since last Friday, you are no doubt aware of the lawsuit filed by The Lones Group against Daniel Rothamel. I won’t rehash all the details in this article – there are plenty of places to get more info on that. Here is the actual legal complaint – that’s a good place to start if you are interested in the details.
The article I published on this subject, The Lones Group v. Rothamel: A case study in destroying your on-line reputation, has just about taken on a life of its own. At the time of this writing, it has 523 Facebook “likes”, 237 comments, and it has been linked to more times than I can count.
This article, the one you are reading right now, is being written to clarify a few things. And as I am prone to doing, to offer some opinions as well”
Why I wrote the original article
I wrote The Lones Group v. Rothamel: A case study in destroying your on-line reputation, for two reasons:
1) It was an attempt to try to show people what can happen in the social media space. Things can move swiftly via social networking channels be they the good, the bad, or the ugly. People need to understand this, and consider it before they take any action whether that be filing a law suit, writing a positive or negative review, or opining on anything. Be aware of how social networking, and those in the “social community” work. I still feel that this is sage advice whether you “actively participate” in social networking or have nothing to do with it. In today’s business world, social media / networking is a fact of life. You need to understand it, even if you don’t ever plan on utilizing it.
2) I wanted to get the word out that donations were being collected to help Daniel with his legal defense fees. Daniel is my friend, and I am very proud to call him a friend. I stand by my friends, possibly to a fault. Honestly, I’d take a bullet for Daniel. In my opinion, Daniel is being shot at (not literally of course. It’s a metaphor). If a friend needs help, I want to help them and lawsuits are ridiculously expensive. I am not privy to Daniel’s financials, but I am confident that spending many thousands of dollars defending himself in a lawsuit puts a strain on him and his family (and his family brokerage was also a named party in the suit). I’m certain that anyone with a one-year old and a mother with breast cancer doesn’t need the additional stress and expense of financing a legal battle.
That’s it. That was the sole purpose of the article.
Why I did not write the original article
Since the article was published, I have been accused both publicly and privately of 1) attempting to damage the business and name of Denise Lones and/or The Lones Group; 2) trying to “stuff Google” and take over search results for Lones Group related search terms; 3) caring only about getting backlinks and traffic; 4) bullying and leading and/or inciting a mob; and 5) various and sundry other things.
All I can do now is give you my word that none of that was my intent. You can take my word however you want to. Some will believe me, some won’t. If you’ll bear with me, I’d like to address each of these items.
1) I have no desire what-so-ever to damage Denise Lones or her company. As I mentioned in my original article, I’d never even heard of them until Friday. I have no idea if they are adept at what they do. They have glowing testimonials on their website, and a few people have come forward since Friday and said Denise is a good person and very good at what she does. I have no reason to doubt any of that. I’m sure they do excellent work. Damaging the Lones Group serves no purpose.
2) “Taking over Google” for Lones related search terms does me absolutely no good. No one looking to buy or sell a home in Phoenix is going to be searching for Lones this or that. Yes, my post now ranks pretty well for a couple of search terms related to the Lones group. I’m in the process of addressing this, more will follow below.
3) Backlinks and traffic related to this post mean nothing. Not to sound all pompous, but this site has on the order of 80,000 backlinks. Another dozen or two isn’t going to matter. Yes, the traffic to my post has been heavy, but again, the people reading that post are highly unlikely to ask a Thompson’s Realty agent to help them buy or sell a home and the major purpose of this blog is to connect potential Phoenix area home buyers and sellers with our brokerage.
4) The “inciting a mob” is an interesting thing. Anyone remotely familiar with the real estate social networking space could see this coming. Daniel is a man of great character, he shares willingly, and he is widely respected in the real estate social media space. I don’t know anyone that enjoys seeing people they respect get sued. That there was a backlash should not have been a surprise.
Did I lead this mob?
Here is where I made a mistake. And I’ll apologize right now for making that mistake. For whatever reason, there are a lot of real estate agents that read here and respect me and what I have to say. Of that I am thankful. It humbles me. I need to do a better job of remembering that when I write emotionally charged articles.
I don’t think I am the Don of the re.net mafia, but I should have realized that some folks would read my post, gloss over the hoped for “social media lesson” and react – potentially spitefully to what I wrote. I should have been crystal clear in my article that my opinion was we needed to rally around Daniel, not go on the attack against Denise and The Lones Group. I didn’t make that clear. I personally know many of the people that have written about this and I firmly believe the vast majority have Daniel’s best interests in mind. But there are some negative things being said about Denise and her company. I’ve heard she has gotten phone calls and emails that were downright nasty.
That is just wrong. It’s wrong on many levels. It seems that some of these calls and emails were anonymous. Not only is that wrong, it’s also cowardly. If you don’t have the sack to put your name on something you want to say, then you should just not say it.
You don’t have to like Denise Lones, you don’t have to like the legal system. But Denise has every right to file a lawsuit. We live in a very litigious society, and that bothers many people, myself included. But that doesn’t mean Denise is evil for filing a lawsuit. Is the lawsuit misguided? Yes, in my decidedly non-legal opinion. Was there a better way to handle it? Yes, in my opinion. I think picking up the phone and calling someone and saying, “Can we work this out?” is the place to start. Starting with a Cease & Desist letter just starts the whole thing out on an adversarial foot. But that’s just my opinion. Denise apparently feels differently and that is her right. If you don’t like her having that right, if you don’t like the U.S. justice system, thenyou can move. Or try to change it. But don’t attack someone for exercising their rights. Disagree, sure. But let’s be civil about it.
What I’m doing now
Earlier today, I flagged my original article as “noindex, nofollow”. That means that Google will no longer index that post. I don’t know how long it will take Google to de-index the post, but it should get de-indexed at some point (and if an SEO wizard is reading this, tell me what, if anything, else I can do to get it de-indexed). Below is a screen shot of my WordPress backend showing the post is set to noindex/nofollow.
I’m considering deleting the post entirely, but I still think it helps provide a valuable lesson. So for now I’m leaving it in a published state. If I need to delete it in order for it to disappear from Google, I will.
I have also removed references to the post from other sites I control (ThompsonsRealty.com, Active Rain, and Trulia). If I write about this lawsuit again on those sites, it will only be to promote the site that I set up for Daniel’s legal defense fund.
What you should do now
You are an adult, I can’t tell you what to do (heck, I can barely tell my children what to do). It is my hope that no one attacks Denise or her company. “Attack the idea, not the person”, debating in an open, honest, non-adversarial way is a good thing. Leaving anonymous voice mails, dissing an individual or a company (especially someone you do not know), being spiteful and hateful – those are bad things. If you love and/or respect Daniel Rothamel like I do, then do what you can to raise awareness for his defense fund. That can certainly be done without attacking Denise or The Lones Group. Support Daniel financially, spiritually, or just let him know you’re thinking about him and his family. I assure you, that means a lot to Daniel, Kari and Patsy. You can leave him a message of support here.
I can’t make you de-index a post you wrote. That is a decision only you can make. I’m sure some people will think I’m backing down to the pressure of a vocal few. Think what you will, but I’m de-indexing the post because in my opinion, it’s the right thing to do.
To Denise Lones
I am sorry, and I apologize. I didn’t mean to help incite a mob. There was no intention to bully you, but I can see how it comes across that way. My post led to some of that and for that I apologize. Do I wish you’d drop the lawsuit? Of course I do. I wish that you and Daniel could work things out together. Perhaps with a mediator instead of a jury trial and all the expense that entails for both of you? But you are within your right to sue, that can not be argued.
To Daniel Rothamel
I love you like a brother. I think you know that I would take a bullet for you. Hang in there my friend. Give that beautiful Ava a kiss from “Uncle Jay” and lay one on Kari and Patsy for me too. We’re praying for your Mom too and know she will beat the evil that is cancer.
Photo Credit: limaoscarjuliet on Flickr. CC Licensed.
The Phoenix Real Estate Guy was started by Jay Thompson, and I have a little blogging problem... he liked to say...
Jay – I’ve known you for going on seven years now (since before your blogging days even began). It’s been said before, but allow me to repeat: I can’t think of another person I’d rather go to battle with. There is no finer a person that I’ve ever met than Jay Thompson – I’m proud to be able to call him a true friend.
Well said, Jay. As you said, there are lessons to be learned here about the power and speed of the items in the social media world. And those that devolve to the level of personal attacks on the participants or supporters of the participants on either side of the question have some serious growing up to do. The phrase “restraint of pen and tongue” comes to mind from a different phase of life but very apropos. Keep doing what you do, you do it well.
Awesome.
Wow Jay, you are still the stand up guy I have known you to be all these years!
I am one of those agents that respect you and listen to you and follow what you do – all the way from San Diego.
But does that mean I don’t have a mind of my own? Nope! I read your blog post, and the blog posts of several others in the re.net, and I also read the legal document (the actual one from the lawsuit) and then I came to my own conclusion. It just so happened to be the same as yours! This lawsuit has no merit.
I am sad to hear that Denise Lones got attacked and those who attacked her are responsible for that. And boy do I hate those who attack anonymously. If you are going to say something, stand behind your words, right?? Cowards! I certainly didn’t feel the urge to attack her, based on what you wrote or what others wrote.
Anyways I did donate to the fund you created as well. I am willing to put my money where my beliefs are. Good luck to Daniel, I hope he prevails. I hope this lawsuit is dropped.
And thanks for the update. 🙂
Yalda
The San Diego Real Estate Lady
Well done sir.
Jay,
You know I love you. You know that I would take a bulletfor you. Thank you for writing this.
Thank you for cofirming, once again, everything I have ever thought about you.
Thank you.
((((GROUP HUG))))))
bravo, my man… bravo!
Jay, I’m sorry but I don’t see how you “incited a mob”, I know it wasn’t your intention, your post was quite simply the first and most widely read on the subject and quite frankly, I didn’t see the mob atmosphere that others might have said was created.
Most of the reNet may have sided with Daniel because they knew him and liked him as a re zebra and didn’t know anything about the Lones Group before the other day.
Others might have questioned whether Denise should have filed a lawsuit (which obviously was her right if she felt wronged and couldn’t get satisfaction) but to call the reaction bullying or a mob is not what I saw.
To me, the bottom line on the story ultimately became the power of the social network, which love it or leave it, is where we are today. The lesson, think before you act.
Too bad the Lones Group can’t back down or bow out with the grace such as yours.
Jay, you didn’t lead a mob – many capable and thinking adults make their decisions to employ their opinions in various ways. Like you know Daniel, we know you – respect you but never take marching orders. The Lones group, through what they are (still) doing to Daniel and from their “I’m being bullied” statement shows a perpetual victim personality. The stubbornness to pursue this shake down is sad. You though, have shown great character. (Maybe she will too?)
As for the mob- it’s called bad press. That happens when you do bad things. I’ll respect your wishes even with differing opinions. Not because you’re the mob don, but because it’s what you believe is best for Daniel.
Jay,
Great post and explanation. Thought knowing you, I understood all your original intentions and motivations for the original post and needed no explanation.
All the same, I hopoe this clears up some of the allegations and accusations against YOU! What an avalanche this whole drama has been already!
Having been on both sides of a cease & desist letter, and as an attorney, I know all too well what some of these things entail.
Grrr. That’s always a bummer. I was so looking forward to being stupidly brutal towards a stranger on behalf of another stranger. I love to let my inner psycho off my chain when I can.
This so bummed that I don’ have the moral high ground…;-)
I heard about this. The real estate zebra! It’s pretty crazy how this happened. You have to be so careful online these days!
Jay,
Really well said. I’d like to add something more than this, but I really cannot articulate it any better than you did.
While I am decidedly on Daniel’s side of this based on what I think I know from a decidedly non-legal perspective (although I HAVE had intellectual property stolen from me – which is vaguely in the neighborhood of this case – and I chose to deal with it in a less aggressive manner, and I was instantly successful, I believe, at least in part because I WAS less aggressive), I absolutely resent LIKE HELL that anyone would attack the Lones Group in a knee-jerk fashion simply because they chose to exercise their legal rights.
As I said in the post that I wrote on this topic:
“My interest in this is NOT to harm the plaintiff, but simply to defend Daniel, whom I consider a personal friend, because he IS a great guy who has made a name for himself by, among other things, speaking all over the country on the issue of “LOVE” (not kidding!).”
It took a lot of courage for you to write this post. Much respect to you for doing so…
Best,
Michael
I find it unfortunate that anyone would make anonymous calls to anyone in much the same way there is no credibility for me in so many anonymous comments, so it saddens me that Denise and staff had to endure it. That said, the one’s in the right don’t always win lawsuits, as we all know, nor do small business owners tend to have the funds to fight them. There is bullying of sorts in initiating a lawsuit of this kind (jury trial and all) against someone, and my opinion of Denise is shaped by those thoughts and the text of the actual complaint and her recent press release. Yes I, too, respect you Jay, but honestly, I don’t see too many sheeple commenting on any of your blogs, hence I wouldn’t expect that your followers are mindless mob… I don’t think they are.
Of course all that aside, if you believe this is the best way to move forward, who am I to argue. I am not delisting or removing anything I’ve written, and if some schmuck decides to make a nasty phone call because of something they’ve read on my post, let it be on said schmuck’s conscience.
I personally had never heard of Daniel or the Lones Group until reading your blog via TSA. And after reading your initial post I took away the lesson you shared, and also started following Daniel on twitter. In my opinion you did not incite a mob but stood up for your friend and brother, which is comendable. But to follow it up with this post again proves you are a man of great character. As a result, although I do not know Daniel, I am going to donate to his fund.
I disagree… but I already told you that in private. I think agents who suck for any reason, even if that reason is NOT real estate related, should be called out for sucking at life.
Very well put Jay. You have more “sack” than I do for writing this article, the original article, and for taking a strong position on the entire issue. As far as thinking you took a stance in an effort to gain website traffic and capitalize on the issue… People saying that must not know you or follow you very well. I for one know you have way more integrity than that, and have no need to try and benefit from the extra web traffic.
Keep up the good work, and see you next week at the Winter conference!
Very well put Jay. You have more “sack” than I do for writing this article, the original article, and for taking a strong position on the entire issue. As far as thinking you took a stance in an effort to gain website traffic and capitalize on the issue… People saying that must not know you or follow you very well. I for one know you have way more integrity than that, and have no need to try and benefit from the extra web traffic.
Keep up the good work, and see you next week at the Winter conference!
Jay, don’t think you can take responsibility for what few people may or may not have done. You did the right thing and stood up for Daniel. Daniel is one of us and we stand beside him. Enough said.
I suspect that your site is frequently crawled by Google and it should take very little time for it to pick up the no index tag and remove it from the index.
The no follow tag is not necessary as it relates to how Google treats those links and has nothing to do with whether the page is visible in the engines. That said, no biggie and really no point in changing it.
And of course well said Jay. Once again you prove why you are seen as the Don. Leading by example.
I don’t think you rounded up the villagers with pitchforks. You were just defending your friend. But I do think you should keep the title “Don of the re.net” Pretty catchy!
It is a total defence of your plaintiff, Daniel.
This has been such a learning experience, social media, trademarks, COE. The response to your empasssioned first post was swift and hugh. You are a stand up guy for writting this post and I have tremendous respect for you. I will also contribute to the Defense Fund. I would hope that after this mediation might be employed rather than a law suit we shall see.
Jay,
The using the noindex should remove the page from all major search engine results pages when they get around to crawling that page again.
Gahlord
Jay, you’re certainly the stand-up guy that we all know you to be. I don’t believe you promoted the mob behavior, I believe that we’re all adults and are certainly able to act and react appropriately in any given situation. Many of us who have followed Daniel over the years, know he’s a stand-up guy too, so of course, we came to his defense–most of whom did it in a civil manner.
I am still puzzled by the whole law suit and something that you mentioned brought another point up: Just as Daniel’s use of the zebra stripes, in no way, relates to their business or takes away from their potential business; nor is someone looking for a marketing company on the west coast going to click on a real estate blog in Arizona. When I’m searching for someone to do marketing for me in Washington state, I’m certainly not going to click on a real estate agent’s blog in VA or AZ.
Daniel is so very fortunate to have you as a friend, Jay–especially one who would ‘take a bullet for him’!
Very well written post, Jay! My best to Daniel.
Jay, I have to disagree with you. You ARE the Don of the re.net mafia.
/kneels, kisses ring
“Godfather”
-rsh
I think that is great that you changed it to no index/no follow but I don’t think you should take the post down – for Daniel’s sake. Please leave it up for awareness.
I did read the legal complaint and I do side with Daniel. Dates do not seem to add up. Awareness is key and we should do this like adults without attacking.
THAT BEING SAID – my comment may have sounded like an attack against the Lones Group but all I am trying to do is figure out motivation. This goes to prove that NO ONE is safe – especially in these economic times.
One more thing – just like *they* have a right to a lawsuit, you have a right to voice your opinion – it sounds as if you are now being accused of things that are no true. Do not let them bully you into taking it down. Those of us that follow you regularly KNOW you are a stand up guy and most of us are probably sane enough not to harass them in the manner you describe. For me there is not enough hours in a day to waste time or energy on shenanigans of that sort.
Jay,
You are always a classy guy and I think that the accusations that you have received are ridiculous and unfounded. This is YOUR site and you can put anything up here you want – including opinions. There was nothing disparaging by you about the Loads Group and you shouldn’t feel pressured to take it down. This is America and you have the RIGHT to speak your mind. I am surprised at some of these accusations and have to assume they come from very ill-informed sources. Unless there was legal action threatened and only under the advisement of my lawyer would I consider changing anything. Not sure if you are at liberty to discuss this up here.
Keep fighting the good fight. Daniel did not deserve this lawsuit and I think we owe it to ourselves as citizens to be vocal when it comes to something like this. Who will be the next to suffer this fate? I don’t know but I do know that I will not be sitting by and let them be attacked in this manner. If not, then I might as well move to some other country with no freedom of speech – intentionally omitted for legal purposes. 🙂
“Don of the re.net mafia” – I love that. It was nice chatting with you last night. You are a stand up guy and, I believe, spot on with your opinions. I’m with you and Daniel!
How could I disagree with you? The person of mention is obvious litigious. I do disagree with her right to sue Daniel. Nothing I have read in the suit rises to the level of infringement or a trademark violation. The law is very clear on both subjects and even me, a non-lawyer, can see there is no basis.
I ran it past a couple real attorneys who know trademark and trade name law and both were surprised any attorney would represent this complaint. Actually they used some fine expletives to describe the type of lawyer who would take on this case.
I honestly believe that had you seen evidence that Daniel was intentionally going after someone, you and others would have had private conversations with him offering counsel and advice. Likewise, Inmann would not have written the same style of article.
Some people earn the honor of being crucified by social media… I think it is called “cause and effect.”
Here is a brief overview of what constitutes a trade mark violation for those who are interested:
Trademark infringement is a violation of the exclusive rights attaching to a trademark without the authorization of the trademark owner or any licensees (provided that such authorization was within the scope of the license). Infringement may occur when one party, the “infringer”, uses a trademark which is identical or confusingly similar to a trademark owned by another party, in relation to products or services which are identical or similar to the products or services which the registration covers. An owner of a trademark may commence legal proceedings against a party which infringes its registration.
Make no apologies Jay, you said nothing that the rest of us would not have said. I realize that we live in a sue-happy society and that you may have opened yourself us to liability with this group of Lones retards, but we’ll stand behind you just as we did for Daniel. Here’s the lesson – don’t file frivolous lawsuits again people within your own industry. Be smart and be a good steward. If you do, prepare yourself for a wild ride.
Thank you for posting this Jay. I can see both sides of the dispute and hope both parties will work something out outside of a courtroom.
Jay .. Your a gentleman and a scholar ”¦ and a damn good blogger ”¦.. sounds like someone sent you a threatening message. Its a sad world we live in when our First Amendment right is constantly being held hostage to the threat of a law suite. Monsanto patients living organisms and people stake claim to specific words in language as their own word and trade right, trying to patent and trademark a common word so no one else can use the common word. Time to make up a new language? or dare say I, torte reform? ”¦. yeah right! Lawyers and corporations run this country of ours ”¦. that was”¦. once free and innovative and one could speak their mind. Sadly ”¦.. no longer!
I still don’t get it. This was another disgraceful display, on top of another hot mess you put up over on the Inman News Blog.
Daniel needs to fix this. He can fix it. Perpetuating this absolute nonsense looks bad for the Real Estate Industry.
Well you’re certainly entitled to find my article a “disgraceful display” David, not much I can do about that.
You wrote in your post about all of this that, “It was a brutal attack of lies, threats, insults, and attempted intimidation.”
Can you point out one place where I lied, threatened, insulted or intimidated anyone? And if you feel that I have done all that about all I can suggest is to stop reading and commenting on what I write. Why waste your time reading disgustful displays and hot messes?
Great post as usual. I hope everyone who missed it last time got the message about the quickness in which a social media message can travel, good or bad and whether or not the originator of that message uses social media. Thanks again!
The reason to read is because many agents have been lead to believe they “have to” engage in social media. We came to the internet to learn.
Then we encounter this. How does anything that has happened uplift the Real Estate community?
I’ve offered to help. This is a simple thing.
In all of my commnets I have said this isn’t the first firestorm. The same happened on the Real Estate Forum on Face book. Two weeks later there was this.
It just doesn’t look good.
An example of lies is that all of this has to do with Inman News. Daniel was portray as a local Real Estate agent in Virginia when he has been, and will emcee, the Inman News Connect REBoot here in Seattle.
Inman News is selling this social media idea. Inman News is the social media connection “all” Real Estate Professionals are supposed to be buying.
You want me, as does Rich Jacobson, to stop reading, and commenting. That doesn’t speak well of the social medium. That to me is the second lie.
If we are to believe that this is an open forum then that is how it is supposed to work.
David –
It is very unfortunate that so many agents have been led to believe that they have to engage in social media to be successful. Nothing could be further from the truth.There are countless agents who are wildly successful that have never written one blog post, have no Twitter account and haven’t even heard of Facebook. (well, they’ve probably head of Facebook).
But I do feel like agents need to at least have some fundamental understanding of how social media works. This very situation is a perfect example of why understanding it is important.
A jury trial in a Federal court is now on the table, so when you say this is a simple thing, I’m not so sure. Any time lawyers get involved, simplicity flies out the window.
I never lied about Daniels role. Yes, he emcees some Reboots. He certainly doesn’t make a living doing that. He doesn’t sell marketing materials like the Lones Group. And as far as I know, they don’t sell houses like Daniel. And Danel’s brokerage, also named in the suit, certainly doesn’t emcee Agent Reboot sessions. Heck, the brokerage doesn’t even use Zebra’s. Why they were named in the suit is beyond me.
Please read my comment again, I didn’t ever say I want you to stop reading and commenting. I said if you don’t like what I write, if you find my writing a “disgraceful display” and a “brutal attack of lies, threats, insults, and attempted intimidation” (those are all your words) then why read and comment?
You are free to read and comment to your heart’s content. I simply don’t understand why anyone would chose to read something they consider disgusting, untruthful, insulting and threatening. If I read something I felt that strongly negative about I’d stop reading it. But that’s just me.
I like it when people of differing opinions comment here David. It tends to make the discussion more educational and interesting. That desire to have differing opinions is even in my comment policy.
David, if I wanted you to stop commenting here, I’d block your IP address so you couldn’t comment here. Obviously I haven’t done that, nor will I.
So please don’t call me a liar for something I never said or even implied.
I’m an old guy sitting here on a Saturday morning before the kids get up to do my social media stuff. I spend about two hours a day, some times more, with the internet.
A month ago I was working on my Face Book, which I have yet to figure out when I was invited to the Real Estate Forum by Mike the Money Man, here in Seattle. He had invited a lot of people. The firestorm started there. He was threatened with law suits, insulted, and vilified. He closed the site, and I encouraged him to reopen it, which he did.
Two weeks later I was doing my rounds of Face Book, Linked:Seattle, websites, and writing my blog posts when my e-mail box starts filling with Rhonda Porter, and Rich Jacobson tirades against Denise Lones. WTF was going through my head when I started reading the posts listed on Rich’s site.
I comment to kind of know where I am in reading comments on posts.
As the day went on I learned more about Daniel, and it began to make more sense. He was coming to Seattle with Inman REBoot, he had a cease and desist since July which he “turned over to his attorney,” and the people who were organizing the REBar Camp here in Seattle this past week were involved.
At Daniel’s request I called him. He is a nice guy, but this is Real Estate so I asked him if he had called Denise, and he said no. Well, the phone calling works both ways. I suggested if he would like my help I was certainly willing to help. He said he would take care of it. He also said he bought his branding package from a company in Texas. It really does look similar to Denise’s early stuff.
This is Real Estate. We are a very small community. We negotiate, cajole, work stuff out, and yes, law suits are in our bucket of tools.
So, to me, this is simple. Setting up camps, or circling wagons is like the cowboys fighting cowboys from the same ranch.
You use a web site and blogging for business. That doesn’t set you apart from the Mike Ferry camp. We are all in this together.
What I expected after a week is a resolution. As far as I can see no one is working on that, it’s just more divisiveness. The ball has been in Daniel’s court for a week. I understand personal stuff, but I have offered to help, make a call, write a letter, or in general force a resolution.
Let’s fix it. It’s a negotiation. If it’s left up to the attorneys it defeats the purpose of Agency. It looks bad.
I agree with you and was hoping that this would provoke discussion between the two of them and a negotiation. Of course we do not know what is going on behind the scenes.
David – so when you get a C&D from a company you’ve never heard of and that resides nowhere near your market, nor engages in the practice of real estate (as for the sake of argument, let’s pretend you do) – your reaction would have been to pick up the phone and call the company?
I have a hard time believing that. Denise, if she were hoping for a quiet resolution to her grievances, should have called Daniel to initiate a discussion instead of sending a C&D.
Oh, and once again, this isn’t real estate. This is a marketing firm (albeit with the owner being a member of the NAR) suing someone in Real Estate. Even if Daniel teaches agents marketing and gets paid as a speaker, on occasion, he does not have a business devoted to real estate marketing, last I checked…
David –
I’ve seen you comment in several places that Daniel “ignored” the Cease & Desist, and now you are here saying he turned it over to his attorney.
Well, turning over a C&D to an attorney is exactly what should be done with it.
I am not privy to what the C&D contained, and I suspect you’ve never seen it either. Nor are either of us privy to what Daniel’s/his attorney’s response to the C&D was.Given the text of The Lones Group’s court complaint, it’s quite likely that the C&D said something along the lines of “Stop using the zebra in your branding” and/or “Shut down your web site in X days”. That’s what C&D’s do — they ask you to cease & desist some activity.
Turning over a C&D to an attorney is NOT “ignoring” it.
If you expected this to be resolved in a week, your expectations are not realistic. Denise filed a law suit in federal court. It’s going to take a lot longer than a week to resolve that. You say that as far as you can see, no one is working on a resolution. Again, I don’t believe you are privy to conversations Daniel has had with his attorney, and I doubt you are privy to conversations Denise has had with hers. For all we know they are working toward a resolution. I have no idea. And neither do you.
“If it’s left up to the attorneys it defeats the purpose of Agency. It looks bad.”
There is no “if” David. It HAS been left up to the attorneys. As I stated, Denise has every right to go that route. I don’t happen to agree with starting off on that route, and it sounds like you don’t either. Once a C&D and a federal law suit are filed, that tends to take the personal phone calls out of the equation. Daniel (and Denise) may well be under the instruction of their attorneys not to speak directly to each other. That is quite a common instruction from attorneys when things get to the point of people being served a federal suit requesting a jury trial.
As an aside, I’m curious if you know Denise personally or have utilized her company’s services? The only reason I ask is she is based (roughly) in the Seattle area, as are you. It’s certainly none of my business, and you are completely free to not answer whether you know her or not. If you do know her or have some relationship however, a disclosure to that affect seems appropriate, just as I and others have disclosed our relationship to Daniel.
I’ve said it over and over — my intent was never to “circle the wagons”, “stuff Google”, “insult Denise”, “incite a mob”, “undermine her business” or any of the other various things some, including you, have accused me of. Both my original post and this one are no longer indexed in Google. I’ll say it for the last time, my intent was to help educate people on how things can play out in the social media space, and to raise awareness of a defense fund for Daniel and his brokerage. You can chose to believe those were my intentions or not, that’s your prerogative.
Jay, You also seem like an OK guy, as is Daniel. I don’t know Denise, I do my own marketing. I personally think the Zebra thing is silly. It’s like wearing funny hats as a trade mark.
First, from vague recollection it costs $250, maybe up to $1000 to file a Cease, and Desist.
If I ever got one I would be on the phone, all day, every day until the matter was resolved. I would contact the person who sent me the order, publish a blog, keep a journal, and maybe get on a plane. They, and I would have business together which would give me the right to resolve it.
I do use attorneys from time to time to write letters. After that it is up to me. When I have sent letters, by attorneys, yes, I get the phone call. No one has ever responded to me through an attorney.
What took me by surprise was the Inman News connection. They published the article, they were Bringing the Inamn News Agent REBoot to my town. I had just posted an announcement for REBoot on the Real Estate Forum of Face Book.
I had also signed up for the REBar Camp that Rhonda was helping to put together. It was my first one.
So, I’m new. I comment on Rain City Guide, and the Seattle Bubble, and yes, I have a horrible online reputation.
I do defend traditional Real Estate Agency over online Real Estate services.
I think this is a really simple, ridiculous thing. The only reason it is worth my time is the response, the orchestration, and the absurdity.
My ultimate question is if I should be spending time with an online presence if this stupid little thing can create a firestorm.
Why would anyone spend time with an online brand if all it takes is a half dozen local yokels to destroy it?
I’ve offered to help. Let’s get it done.
Seems that Denise Lones has more of a national stage than we thought. She wrote for Realty Times for 5 years, she is a certified instructor for the National Association of Home Builders among some other stuff. The wrong zebra is speaking in Washington state.
I’ve never heard Denise speak, so I can’t say if the wrong zebra is speaking in Seattle. She may well be a fantastic speaker. I know Daniel is, as I’ve heard him speak.
Just because someone writes for Realty Times, and is a certified instructor doesn’t necessarily make them a great public speaker or “fit” for what Agent Reboot is looking for. Again, Denise may be all that and more. I just can’t say since I’ve never heard her speak.
Jay: She’s a very dynamic speaker, high energy, charismatic…does a great job making the material fun to learn. Historically, one of the better cont. ed. instructors in our State. She offers some good, solid traditional marketing advice/training/services….a bit pricey, comparatively, but good nonetheless….
Meant that this is the rub for her, he is a Zebra speaking on her home turf….
Believe this case started last July but could be. I do not know Denise but have read her blog and I get a sense which could be totally wrong that she may want a larger national presence and that she may be butting up against Daniel in that quest. The battling Zebras. Don’t think you can say he is a Realtor from one state and she is a marketing person from another. I believe she is a bit stymied in pushing nationally because of a perceived conflict. Just my opinion….
Jay, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Some people just are prone to getting sticks up their arse. It’s really too bad.
Hi Jay,
I’m with you, I think you did the right thing.
With all due respect, back peddling here is a mistake. If you believe what you wrote, then why not stand by it?
Bob –
I do believe what I wrote. That’s why I didn’t change a word, and why the post is still up.
I wrote this follow-up to clarify my original intentions for writing what I did, and to clarify why I did not write it.
De-indexing the article was done to prove that there was no intention to “stuff Google”. I wish there was a way that the post could be indexed for just terms like “social media reputation management” or “how a brand can be damaged” while excluding it from search results like “Lones Group”. I guess I could have written it without identifying any of the parties by name, but it’s too late for that — and in my opinion would have been less effective as a learning lesson if it were depersonalized.
The post doesn’t need to be indexed in Google for it to be an effective learning example. And it served it’s other purpose as well — helping to raise awareness of Daniel’s defense fund (which is another reason for not using “Company X” instead of The Lones Group. It’s hard to ask people to donate their money without including legit info on who is suing whom.)
I knew there would be people that felt I was caving in to a vocal minority, pack peddling, whatever, when I wrote this. And that’s OK, I understand that. My apology to Denise was sincere — I am sorry for some of what she’s going through. I disagree **completely** with her chosen method of addressing this situation, but she doesn’t deserve anonymous calls and baseless attacks.
Again, with all due respect, I dont believe that for a minute. You have gone from barcamp to barcamp playing the role of accidental SEO to teach people how to get their message across online.
The reason why there was a backlash from a vocal minority was because you clearly had an agenda that went beyond raising money and awareness. You knew exactly what the results would be and you said as much.
Believe whatever you choose to believe Bob. I can’t change your mind, and to be honest it doesn’t matter to me what you think my motives were. I know what they were, you are merely speculating.
Yes, I knew the discussion was going to be swift, intense, and fill up Google SERPS. Anyone with just rudimentary experience in the real estate social media space saw that coming from miles away. That’s one of the things that’s so mind-boggling about this whole thing. An expert in real estate marketing and branding didn’t see this coming? Really?
But I didn’t write what I did with the intent to fill up Google. Again just being honest here — if “stuffing Google” was part of an “agenda” there are plenty of other platforms I could also have posted on.
I also didn’t de-index my post to appease the vocal minority. They helped me realize that was the right thing to do, but I certainly didn’t do it to make them happy. I did it because I felt it was the right thing to do.
Meanwhile have you seen Daniel’s letter to Denise that was published on line today?
Yeah, I read it last night Miriam.
Daniel’s letter to Denise is here if anyone missed it.
So neither Yahoo or Microsoft could “take over google”, but this blog could, or at some people claim? Wow, this must be some blog.
Thanks Jay.
I think the point of why so many are concerned about this case, isn’t just about caring about one person or the other, It’s about the fact that so many of us have co-existed for over a 100 years under the NAR umbrella, and throughout our industry in general, using very similar branding and never had an issue till now. I can’t tell you how many other dog loving, horsey, tough hunting chicks that love the outdoors, there are are out there, but now I fear anyone of them could file a suit to come after my “branding.” How could this threat of legal suit not intimidate every one of us into some level of concern? Even if the suit is dropped or mediated, now we will all wonder who’s next and if it’s going to be one of us. Even if the case is dropped, the issue has been raised and something needs to be done to prevent it in the future. Especially on generic “mascots” like zebras, horses, dogs, or heck even bee’s.
Hi Jay,
As usual, you take the high road. I understand the no index/no follow decision, but hope you don’t delete the post. It does have value to make people think.
As for any damage your post may have caused to the Lones Group, I disagree. I am a big girl. When I read your post and considered the talking points, I was then able to make up my own mind. Your post did not seem to be written to sway readers.
I agree with what Lori posted above with regard to branding. Where exactly is this supposed to stop. In further readings, it was stated that a check through the copyright/patent registries revealed no such patent/trademark registration. I don’t know if that’s true. If so, that’s very unfortunate that we’re even having this conversation.
Keep writing. I’ll keep reading, AND thinking for myself. 🙂
Jay – I think you’ve gone above and beyond with this follow up post along with making the other one a no-follow. You are definitely a stand up guy and I think a lot of people can learn by your example of how to take the high road.
Jay, while I don’t think this post was necessary, I do understand the thoughts behind writing it. Going back to the original post, I don’t think you were trying to incite anything but support for a friend and drawing attention to that sharp sword that is social media.
I’ve followed this story for awhile now. I’m impressed with how the real estate community has rallied around Daniel and come to his defence…..but I am also impressed with the rational thinking in the responses. Everything from your initial post Jay, the follow-up post, and now Daniel’s decision to settle. While everyone probably enjoys the drama of a no-holds-barred fight and brash responses, this has been refreshing in so many ways.
I’m going to go out on a Devil’s advocate-style limb and say that the only thing less dignified than an ungrounded lawsuit is accusing masses of strangers of social media “bullying”. The internet is not a playground. I won’t even comment on the particulars of the suit – but I think we can all agree that any lawsuit necessitates risk. Social media, in many respects, hi-lights and even heightens that risk, but this is absolutely no fault of those who employ it, provided that they did not cross any harassment/libel lines. And hey, if those lines were actually crossed, there’s always a lawsuit for that, right?