The Lones Group
Oh wait. For the sue-happy out there, let’s start with some disclosures:
I am not an attorney, in any way, shape or form. I consider Daniel Rothamel and his family (also parties to the lawsuit I’m about to discuss) personal friends. And until today, I had never heard of The Lones Group. I have no idea if they are good at what they do, nor do I really care – that’s not the point. Finally, what follows is simply my personal opinion, which I freely admit is biased and slanted due to my relationship with the Rothamel’s. You are also forewarned that this will be an interminably long post”
Lawyers, sheesh. (And no hard feelings to my good friends who are practicing attorneys or aren’t practicing but hold Juris Doctor degrees).
This morning, Inman News (a real estate news organization) posted an article, ‘Real Estate Zebra’ hit with trademark suit. (This article will slip behind Inman’s pay wall in the next 24 hours Inman is keeping this article on the free side)
To summarize from the Inman article:
Real estate agent and blogger Daniel Rothamel — known for years to his readers as the “Real Estate Zebra” — has been hit with a trademark infringement lawsuit by a company that produces a “Zebra Report” and “Zebra Blog” to market its services to real estate agents.
Bellingham, Wash.-based The Lones Group Inc. claims its use of zebra-themed imagery and trademarks predates Rothamel’s, and that he is “unfairly diverting business” away from the company.
In a complaint filed Tuesday against Rothamel and his brokerage, Strong Team Realtors Inc., The Lones Group seeks an injunction restraining Rothamel and the brokerage from using “in any manner” the trademarks The Zebra Blog or The Zebra Report, “and any other term or terms likely to cause confusion,” including “Real Estate Zebra.”
The lawsuit also seeks compensatory and punitive damages in excess of $75,000, including an award for damages equal to three times the amount of actual damages. (Note: I removed the link to The Lones Group. Bad reporting. So sue me.)
My first thought was, “You’ve got to be freaking kidding me,” followed swiftly by, “Who the hell is The Lones Group?”
So I did a little research.
My first stop was the legal complaint filed by The Lones Group. It states:
Lones is a preeminent source of electronic publishing and weblog (“blog”) services in the field of real estate. Lones is well known for its distinctive trade dress used in connection with these services (the “Lones Trade Dress”), which features an image of a zebra and zebra stripes.
Lones is also well known for its family of trademarks, THE ZEBRA BLOG and THE ZEBRA REPORT (the “Lones Marks”) used in connection with its electronic publishing and blog services.
Now of course I am not personally familiar with every source of electronic publishing and blog services in the field of real estate. I am familiar with a LOT of them, and admit I was somewhat surprised that I had absolutely zero prior knowledge of such a “preeminent” and “well known source” of real estate blog services. Never even heard them mentioned before. But hey, I’ve only been a real estate blogger for almost six years, so I can’t know all the preeminent players in the space.
My first thought on reading the “about” section of the complaint was that Daniel Rothamel and the Strong Team Realtors aren’t even close to being competitors of The Lones Group. Daniel and his brokerage are not a source of electronic publishing and blog services in the field of real estate. They are real estate agents and brokers, who help people buy and sell real estate. The Lones Group sells things to real estate agents. Plus, Daniel and team are in Virginia, The Lones Group is in Belllingham, Washington. They are 2,869 miles apart (I looked it up).
This was not computing.
Next stop on the trail was The Lones Group web site. (I’m still not linking to it. It’s number 1 “for now” on Google for “The Lones Group”, “The Lones Group Inc”, “Lones Group” and similar terms if you really want to see it.)
According to their about page, “The Lones Group started the Real Estate marketing revolution… and we are darn proud of it!”. Wow. Honestly I didn’t even know there was a “Real Estate marketing revolution”. Silly me, I though real estate agents and brokerages had been marketing themselves since time immemorial. I suppose you could call the somewhat recent usage of real estate blogs and social media a “marketing revolution”. Whatever.
Denise Lones, the President of the Lones Group, has a background in real estate sales but is now apparently, “focused on training others how to provide top-notch customer service as well as restructuring their businesses to efficiently use their time and effectively market their services to potential clients.” Herein lies some remarkable irony. Not only does the Lones Group not compete with Strong Team Realtors, a real estate brokerage, they and their agents are potential clients of the Lones Group. Seems odd to me to sue a potential client. Particularly one as widely known and respected in the real estate social media space as Daniel Rothamel.
And surely, since they started the real estate marketing revolution, the Lones Group is well aware of the impact of social media on real estate.
Surely.
The Social Media Melt Down – The Lones Group Kills a brand/name in an afternoon
Since the Inman article was released, there has been a flurry of commentary on social networking sites like Twitter and Facebook. The vast majority of that activity involves incredulous reactions. Daniel Rothamel is a champion among men. He is one of the brightest, caring and most giving individuals I know. And I am not alone in this assessment. When you read things in the legal complaint like, “Defendants’ (Rothamel and Strong Team) conduct was and is calculated to cause injury to Plaintiff (The Lones Group) in the State of Washington” anyone that is even remotely familiar with Daniel and his family know that nothing could be further from the truth. “Was and is calculated to cause injury”?? I don’t give a shit if that’s “legal speak” or not, it’s insulting and so far from the truth it is ludicrous.
When this whole mess started, there was a crazy number of people saying, “Who is The Lones Group and what is their problem?” Here are some examples from a Twitter search:
“It is an excellent way for the Lones Group to establish themselves as a hated name in the RE industry though”
“the Lones group must be hurting for money and I’ve never heard if then either”
“Lones describes their client base after they are done with the lawsuit.”
“The Lones Group? There’s one company I will *never* use for marketing or anything else they claim to do.”
“It’s funny… I’ve never heard of The Lones Group. Until today.”
“Ridiculous what they are doing.”
“To the Lones Group. Really? I mean Really?”
“Google’s new “Social Search” isn’t looking too hot for the lones group…”
“Denise Lones is a good teacher, enjoyed her classes.” (the only “pro Lones” message I’ve found so far)
“wondering if lones group knows the power of ONE well written blogpost & 30 days of world class SEO…#lonesgroupsux”
And that’s just part of one search. It goes on and on, you get the idea.
The scary thing, or what should be the scary thing for the Lones Group is this is all coming from their potential client base. Sure, there are many many real estate agents that will never see Twitter or Facebook mentions. And in a few days the Twitter stream will die down. So what is the lasting damage to the Lones Groups good name and brand?
Time will tell. There is little doubt that posts like you are reading now will get indexed in Google forever. Even those agents who aren’t active in the social media space are likely to Google The Lones Group. They will be presented with glowing testimonials, along with opinions like this one. It will be up to each of those individuals to decide whether or not to use the Lones Groups services, or to buy the products the Lones Group sells on their web site.
Keep in mind too, the power of word of mouth. It is the most powerful marketing medium in existence. What social media does with word of mouth is vastly broaden its reach. Sure, not every potential client of The Lones Group is on Twitter and Facebook, and clearly not all their potential clients read this blog. But when people with thousands of Twitter followers and Facebook friends jump to defend someone they know and respect it does not bode well for the company on the other side. Word travels fast. The real estate community is pretty tight knit. This will move beyond the social media space and continue to progress through word of mouth and other traditional channels. Of that, I have no doubt.
The lawsuit the Lones Group has filed states that the U.S. District Court, Western District of Washington has jurisdiction in that case because, “the amount in controversy exceeds $75,000.” It also states that, “As a result of Defendants’ conduct, Plaintiff has suffered harm to its reputation and goodwill, and unless Defendant is restrained and enjoined, Plaintiff will continue to suffer harm from Defendants’ conduct.”
Well here’s a message to The Lones Group – I think you’ve done far more than $75K in damage to yourself — THIS AFTERNOON — then Daniel putting a stylized image of a freaking zebra on his website could ever hope to do. The Real Estate Zebra caused you to suffer harm to your reputation and goodwill?
Mayhap you should sue YOURSELF Lones Group for the harm to your reputation and goodwill that you flung upon yourselves with this ridiculous lawsuit.
Whew. 1,814 words. Thanks for reading, I feel better now.
Legal Defense Fund for Daniel
A web site to collect funds for Daniel’s legal defense has been set up at ZebraDefenseFund.com. If there is anything you can contribute, please do so. Short of cash? How about a blog post? Help spread the word. Ask your friends if they can donate. If anyone would like the code to the donation button to put on a post, just let me know. I’ve *never*, not once, asked anyone to link to anything I’ve written. And I won’t do that now. Of course if you want to link to this post, I have no problem with that. If you write a post, let me know and I’ll link to it here. (please see update below).
Fight the good fight Daniel, don’t let The Lones Group bring you down. You ARE the Real Estate Zebra. And you always will be – no matter what happens.
Contribute to Daniel’s Defense Fund Here
Update 2/28:
Sorry folks, I’m not going to attempt to link to all the blog posts on this topic. They are not hard to find. I’ve been accused both publicly and privately of “piling on” (and worse) and it’s just not worth the battle. I’m tired of fighting it with the same people over and over. I’m sure some will feel that I’m giving in to these people, and I understand that sentiment. The bottom line is some of the accusers are right — in some ways. They’re also mistaken in other ways.
This post was written for two reasons — to try to help educate people on what can happen in the social networking space, and to try to help my friend Daniel in a very difficult time for him. I’m not taking that back. People need to understand just how easy it is to destroy your name in the social media space. And I will **never** step down from helping my friends.
You are completely free to disagree with my tactics, the way I’ve chosen to to try to help educate, or my writing style. That’s fine, no problem, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Differing opinions are good. But please don’t tell me or imply that I desire to “destroy” the Lones Group business. That is ludicrous. As I stated in my post, I have no idea if they are good at what they do. They may be brilliant. They may well produce the most visually stunning, compelling and effective marketing material in the country. And more power to them if they do. But they either: 1) do not understand how social media and networking can impact a brand’s perception; or 2) they know, they weighed it, and they chose to move ahead anyway. If #1 is correct, then I hope they and others can learn from this. If #2 is correct, then they took a calculated risk and only time will tell how that pans out for them.
Photo Credit: imjustcreative.com
The Phoenix Real Estate Guy was started by Jay Thompson, and I have a little blogging problem... he liked to say...
Well spoken Jay. I too am absolutely amazed that someone who touts themselves as marketing and branding experts could make such a horrid mess of their own brand. Like you, I had never heard of them and would never use their services.
If they can’t even manage their own business professionally, who on earth would let them manage theirs?
I seriously doubt they will be in business a year from now. Suicide is the best word to describe their actions.
The social media buzz will die down swiftly. The lingering effects? Who knows. I suspect there are now quite a few people that won’t ever give them business. More will never hear about the lawsuit.
I suspect it will last for some time yet…every step of the process this case goes through will draw attention which I am sure will continue to be discussed on SM.
Not to mention we all know the power of this space. As has been well mentioned in your post, we wield the power and as such I will continue to use it to ensure the right party ‘wins’ in the end regardless of the formal outcome.
Since when do real estate marketing companies sue real estate agents? Isn’t this a little like Burger King suing fat people? Seems completely counterintuitive.
haha well put Grant. This made me laugh very loud during a meeting. well done sir!
At the very very least it shows they don’t understand social media. Next week is the Seattle REBar Camp and I am sure that the talk will still be alive while 650 attend. Not sure if they will be there but that will be interesting.
“Reputation monitoring and management” would make a great REBC topic. Have fun a the Seattle REBC, wish I could make it!
Yes, this will be an interesting topic next week at REBC Seattle. I wonder if Denise will be there?
Great post Jay. Hard to believe a “professional” marketing firm would take this road. I hope the bankruptcy attorney they will eventually hire provides better counsel than the one who advised them to move forward with this law suit.
Thank you Jay for getting the word out – I first noticed your post on Facebook.
I have never heard of this “group” but will have their name branded in my mind forever – in the column of “do not use.”
Sad that one can find an attorney to take just about any case….
They’re in that same column for me too Debbie.
And yeah, we live in a very litigious society. Often times suing someone is completely appropriate, often times not.
“The Lones Group started the Real Estate marketing revolution”¦ and we are darn proud of it!”
Is she related to Al Gore?
Yep I’m surprised they didn’t claim they invented the internet. I’ve never heard of them either. Daniel Rothamel ,The Real Estate Zebra, on the other hand is VERY well known in the real estate community.
Great job getting this out and explaining. I’m disgusted with Lones – and will certainly do what I do as my donantion. Now I have some zebra imagery to work on…
Great post – Can you say exponential or viral?
I just don’t get it Ira. Let’s say they win, and get that $75K from Daniel. Is that worth the big giant stain on their name they created with the suit?
I can see how this is a good ROI for them. By any stretch of the imagination.
If they do get $75K, anywhere from $35k-$50k will go to the lawyers. I was told once it takes $15-20k before you get to court.
Though there *may* be a basis for the suit….no one will win but the attorneys.
I just sued my condo assn (for just cause) and won….but the attorneys (who did do a fine job) won “more.”
I think the negative backlash on the Lones people will do more harm to her biz than the perceived harm from Rothamel.
I wouldn’t do biz with this Lones group. Not all publicity is good publicity. But all backlinks ARE DELICIOUS!!!
***OMG was that a “real” comment from me?
You feeling OK Kevin? 😉
You’re right, only the attorneys win in these things.
Yay! Happy comments in same thread from Kevin and Jay. 🙂
I wonder if these people will sue TLG? http://www.zebrapromos.com/services/
Jay – great post…errr rant, but a topic certainly deserving of a trademark Jay Thompson rant. It’s amazing that the marketing group in the Northwest seems to think that an independent blogger/real estate agent/ referee would be misleading consumers or knowingly redirecting traffic away from their marketing/speaking/training business. As SNL’s Seth Meyers would say on Weekend Update… “Really?”
Good luck to Daniel. May he keep selling real estate, officiating hoops games and blogging like a zebra!
I truly had no idea Zebras were so popular in the business world:
http://www.zebra.com/
http://www.zebra.ru/
http://www.zebraconsulting.com/
http://www.zebrapromos.com/main.php
Looks like the Lone Group will be busy chasing their piping hot cup of coffee.
Wow, nicely (and longly j/k) said! What is wrong with people? I have seen the power of this real estate community in action over the last two weeks and THIS real estate community will also move mountains ! The Lones Group obviously will see this also. Sometimes you’re the windshield and sometimes you’re the bug let’s guess who’s who here huh? Great post! Thanks!
Thank you, Jay! A great post – We love you – and sincerely thank you for your support.
I’m in Washington State… and I had no idea who Denise or the Lones Group was until seeing this in Inman today. I’ve seen her stuff once a few years ago come across my desk and I wasn’t impressed… yet she claims to have invented a real estate marketing revolution? As soon as her flyer was out of sight, she was out of mind.
I think this is pathetic. I can’t imagine the effort, time and money it is taking her to do this and what the cost will be to Daniel. She’s not doing herself any favors…she obviously does not understand SOCIAL media.
If you google “zebra report” sports blogs come up first… not her.
I do wonder what dear Joe would have said about this.
BTW…she’s not on the rsvp list for Seattle reBarCamp and since we have 700 signed up, we had no choice but to start a waiting list… she’s welcome to go there.
Seriously, I think you want to open up a space for her. Like when you are watching a horror show and all the zombies are walking in toward the prey. She would get eaten alive. I would actually go out of my way to invite her if I was in the area.
This “Forrest Gump” moment brought to you by branding experts … but probably not the kind of branding you want to have.
@Patsy – you’re welcome. I wish I could do more. There are a LOT of people out there pulling for you guys!
Sheesh! If they met Daniel IRL they would feel so foolish.
Great post. Ridiculous lawsuit.
Thoughts: (1) These Lones People’s site is copyright 2007. Look it up. On their website.
(2) Shouldn’t the folks at Swanepoel, what with their Serengeti imagery, sue Lones?
Just sayin.
I guess Lones could’t handle Daniel’s actually successful efforts, which probably had people asking all the time if they were associated with him. Could probably have not found a less likely target to actually have had preemptive ill intent. Do you research folks, a simple view of his about page would have made it clear that you don’t have much of a case!
Very well written.
The problem is …now poor Daniel has to PAY to defend the right to continue on doing the biz the way he always has.
Even if he wins…he’s a loser. SAD.
AT a very minimum this will cost him $5k. I will donate to this fund. Jay, Matt I’m sure hoping that Daniel who works with/for Inman ponies up some money as well.
Inman makes it’s cash from us. THEY should contribute TOO.
No?
Jay – good article – if this company is teaching the power of social media to their clients they missed listening to their own lesson! your article now shows up on page 1 of google for “The Lones Group” and as you said even if this dies down in twitter or if non-twitter savvy persons missed the discussion anyway – it’s going to live on google history as mark against them. Good for stepping up to help a good person. kudos!
Hi Jay,
Mate, I’m a long way from you guys in geography, but I’m there in spirit. I’ve been following this all morning on Facebook, Twitter and your Blog and feel sick at what such a good guy like is having to endure. Having been on the receiving end of a similar action recently I thought I’d put pen to paper and share a few thoughts about the attack on the Zebra at my blog. http://peterbrewer.com
You see, I don’t think The Lones Group just attacked 1 Zebra. I think they just attacked a herd. Plain Dumb!
This whole thing makes me pretty angry right now. Daniel is such a good guy.
Sounds like they are going to get their first real lesson of the power of social media. I could not agree more Jay
The irony is that Daniel probably never even knew they existed but they are claiming he is infringing in their territory. — I bet they got annoyed answering their phone and people asking for Daniel…
It’s abundantly clear what the RE.net thinks of this travesty. What I find puzzling is the silence coming from Bellingham, WA. You’d think that she would respond in some way, but has probably been instructed not to comment. She should at least write some profound haiku…isn’t that what the Japanese samurais used to do before committing seppuku?
Wayne – Head to their facebook fan page and they have ZERO interaction with the folks on it. It is just a republish of their blog. So I think they are a classic “push” company and have no idea how to actually converse in real estate 2.0. – Toby
I saw that, Toby. Her personal profile is the same, as is their Twitter account, although they have added 2 followers since last night and 1 like to the FB page. Their blog is on a wordpress.com account, and the traffic to their web site is minimal (check it on Compete.com). Overall, not what you would expect from the company that “started the real estate marketing revolution”. FAIL.
Outside of the sheer of a local marketing firm on one coast suing a real estate brokerage and agent on the other coast and accusing them of willfully harming their business, the fact that an attorney even takes this on (for the money) only speaks to the short sightedness of some people. And, as Kevin says, the fact that this is going to cost Daniel and family more than just money, is wrong, imho.
Well, as a licensed Broker in WA State, I know The Lones Group. I personally have attended several of her classes. Our corporate hdqtrs uses her services quite a bit for their training. To say that this legal action will damage their online reputation isn’t necessarily accurate. You have to ‘have’ an online presence first for it to be damaged. For someone who claims to have revolutionized marketing for our industry, their use of social media tools & technology is extremely limited. However, I will say that Denise does a good job of facilitating a continuing ed class and obviously some of the services her group provides have value. But as most have stated, this lawsuit will prove to be more of a loss to their future business revenues then any loss of income that may have ever resulted from Daniel’s use of a zebra. It’s my hope that The Lones Group will come to their senses and cease & desist with this senseless lawsuit. But maybe we should all snail mail our opinions to them. I don’t think they frequent the Internet all that often!….
Jay – how are they defining ‘blog services?’ They don’t even maintain their own blog enough to provide a meaningful example. Most of their stuff is old school traditional marketing, which has it’s place. But to make the claims they do is highly inaccurate…
Just sent a retweet via Mike Mueller – I met Denise (Lones Group) at a Prudential Convention in San Diego, in 2007. I met Daniel at REBCNY, in 2009. There was no confusion or question of competition.
From the Inman article, one of the contentions reads:
“The lawsuit also alleges that consumers may “believe that (Rothamel) is the source of real estate services” offered by The Lones Group.”
Ridiculous!!
So they both use a zebra logo. Big deal! I understand Daniel’s choice of it (the ref’s uniform) but never knew why Denise chose it.
There are lion statues outside the NY Public Library and lions were also used for MGM’s logos. I never confused those two entities being associated or in competition, either.
This was not a well thought out lawsuit. For a company that promotes branding, this can only hurt theirs.
Jack Bauer wears Jay Thompson pajamas…just sayin’
Chuck Norris looks over his shoulder to see if Jay is following him.
Bruce Lee wears a “PhoenixRealEstateGuy.com” t-shirt
@Rich – I miss Jack Bauer… Thanks for the laugh!
yeah, nothing good on TV anymore since 24 ended and Friday Night Lights got canned….
Thanks for an informative and enlightening post which has helped me to understand what I missed all day today on Twitter. Like many others, I had never heard of the Lones Group before today. The atrocious part is this is that this lawsuit/marketing ploy is being played-out on one of our industry’s best.
Jay, Here is my two cents to this latest social media nightmare. The only one “unfairly diverting business” from The Lones Group is The Lones Group – and perhaps it is not so unfair?
The Stripes Heard Around The World
http://www.realtyv2.com/2011/02/the-strips-heard-around-the-world/
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! Denise Lones, I wouldn’t buy your products or services even if you paid me. Good luck with collecting that ‘blood’ money because it is the most expensive check you’ll ever receive! Karma’s gonna get ya, Denise!
Let’s Play Real Estate Jeopardy…….
“I’ll take irreparable harm for $2000 Alex”
Question: This person did irreparable harm to their brand and career, because they couldn’t let it go…..
Answer: Who Is Charlie Sheen!
Alex: No, I’m sorry, we were looking for “The Lones Group”
Thanks for playing
Ok, that was funny.
Watching this story unfold today, I wondered, Really!! Someone can get sued for using a Zebra or it’s stripes or black and white that might look like a zebra. My second thought was, this woman has no idea about marketing, although she proclaims to have revolutionized marketing. She obviously has no clue about SMM. Good Luck, Daniel!
I never heard of any of the parties involved before this afternoon, and I have no stake in the fight, but when someone on twitter asks for money, I’m skeptical. I read the web page, then read the complaint.
Then I went to the Wayback Machine, and found that the Real Estate Zebra website was archived from 2006. The complaint says that Lones establshed their blog in 2007. Uh, who is infringing on who here? You establish rights in a trademark or a service mark by *using* the mark in interstate commerce.
If the infringement is so damaging, why did they wait five years to complain?
I don’t know when they started calling referees zebras, but I don’t remember it in the 1960s, but when F. W. Woolworth changed its name to Footlocker in 1974, they used a zebra as their logo, and the name was in common use then. I don’t think “zebra” can be protected as a trademark. It’s too generic a term.
This reminds me of Jack Warner sending a letter to Groucho arguing that Warner Brothers had a film named Casablanca, and it’d be a violation for the Marx Brothers to release a film called “A Night In Casablanca”. Groucho wrote back pointing out that his family were brothers professionally before the Warners got into show business, and he’d change the name of the Marx Brother film if Warner Brothers would change the name of their company.
If you search for Zebra Report you also find an Open Source program on SourceForge called Zebra Report -> http://sourceforge.net/projects/zebrareport/
What are they going to do? Sue an open source repository?
#urafi award of the day
Rich, as a WA re agent, do you know her? I can’t find her on twitter…see her on FB, but won’t “friend” her… I’d like her to see the impact thus far.
Yes, I know her. I’ve taken some of her classes. She does quite a bit for Windermere Corporate and various offices. Most of her stuff is more traditional marketing. I certainly wouldn’t begin to suggest that they revolutionized anything in our industry….
What a great world we live in uh – Zebras really? Melina and I were chatting and there are almost 400 companies using a zebra this or that from the fast research she did – what I find sad is the amount of time, and money something like this takes to fight – when there is seriously no need for the fight other than one party is apparently bored enough and has enough spare time to play with the lives of others while destroying what could have been for herself. Run her site against almost any of our blogs and the numbers are scary – this reminds me of the guy who tried to sue all the IDX companies and sites that had mobile searches – he claimed he patterned the look – not the coding but the look
I imagine whoever makes up The Lones Group just sitting at a bar with beers half full, looking at no one and saying nothing but thinking, “What the F*** did we just do?”
The irony is that their name is will be forever tied to their lawsuit. Every day more and more people,like my parents, get more comfortable with the internet and research companies before they deal with them. in the name of protecting their name, which someone said they never actually registered but they hold so dear, they have completely lost it.
Really Jay? I see them sitting on a couch watching Oprah reruns not having a clue what is happening to their brand right now….
Have to agree Tina, they are happily oblivious to this entire thing … until they get to the office on Monday morning. :p
Interestingly enough, I’ve never heard of the Lone Group. However, Daniel, THE real estate zebra has made a name for himself.
A company that supposedly teaches realtors sues them as well. Hmm… that will take them really far! Total nonsense… They need to get a life, or better yet… get a real job.
And lastly, Melina Tomson mentioned that there are about 347 companies with actual registered trademarks using the word Zebra. Many that do what The Lone Group does. What if they woke those companies up as well?
This is so interesting and surreal to me. I have attended some of her classes over the years and in 2005 I had my marketing materials designed by her company. Her classes are good and to this day I still like my marketing materials. She is a smart woman; not of a frivolous woman; and is very driven and focused. The only good to come of this is I now know who Mr. Rothamel is and I can follow him.
Gosh… what a mess!!! We support Daniel in his quest for justice against this unwitting attempt to damage his credibility and make a little coin.
Now.. I wonder if friend and master cake-maker @imtiffanyterror (Tiffany Whitten) will be sued for making her famed Zebra cakes…!
“focused on training others how to provide top-notch customer service as well as restructuring their businesses to efficiently use their time and effectively market their services to potential clients.”
There’s the problem! The Zebra speaks at conferences and The Lones Group wants to. I suspect this lawsuit will be over by the baseball All-Star break.
Interesting article in the WSJ this morning: Look-Alike Wines Featuring Look-Alike Marsupials Duke It Out – http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703951704576092343480682946.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_RIGHTTopCarousel_1
yes, I know her. I’ve attended her classes. She does a lot with Windermere. She really isn’t engaged in social media. Most of her stuff is more traditional marketing…
Jay – perhaps they need to add reputation management to their capabilities …
Jay, as far as I can tell, the first time she blogged was April 2007 on ActiveRain….
Her first post on her Lones Group blog is November 2007….
Jay you may have typed 1500 words, they were however some of the most profound words I’ve heard of late. I met Daniel at the first REBarCamp and Inman, a nicer person would be hard to find.
How about we ask some of those Bellingham people if they have heard of the Lones Group? The Lones Group — should start feeling very lonely.
Ridiculous lawsuit that it will take tons of time and money for Daniel to fight.
Great Job Jay
Wait a minute… Jay, have you trademarked “real estate”? What about “guy”? My “real estate guide” could be misconstrued to be you. Oh no… *slaps forehead* 😉
Hey! Watch it there! Now you guys have me paranoid about ‘BawldGuy’. 🙂 BTW, were you aware I invented investment real estate?
Did you trademark Baldguy yet?
You really think that’s necessary?
Hell yeah. Now more than ever. Someone posted on another blog post about this same topic that Dale’s “365 things to do.. (I’m sorry but I don’t know the exact title) was trademark. What if someone else is trying to protect his brand? Someone once said that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Jay, I’m thinking the Lones Group got their legal advice from a blind referee
For those of us that do some social media teaching, this is an excellent example of reputation mis-management. I’m already screen capturing stuff including this post on the first page of a Lones Group google search.
For those of us that do some social media teaching, this is an excellent example of reputation mis-management. I’m already screen capturing stuff including this blog post on the first page of a Lones Group google search.
I hear a new Linda Davis quote, “If your business sucks, a lawsuit isn’t going to make it any better!”
What dorks they are! If they have any sense at all they’ll do a mea culpa and try to turn this around for some reputation management. Otherwise they may as well say adios to this brand and try to revamp with another. Can you imagine letting a company like that have anything to do with our precious brand management? Crazy…
But ….. How can I be something, that I am not?
Jay, has anyone published the acutal Summons & Complaint yet? Do you have a link to it? I’m also curious to learn the name of the lawyer and the law firm.
CJ (and anyone else looking) – the actual summons is linked in the beginning of this post (in the section that quotes from the Inman article. I’ll try to make it more prominent when I get a chance.
Newman and Newman is the law firm.
How can one destroy…something that they may or may not have had?
Cheryl – You can see the legal docs over at http://zebradefensefund.com/
Jay – Have I ever mentioned how much I love your writing style? It’s 100% you.
This whole thing is kind of amazing in the sense that I do agree with you – it is and will be a case study. I also back the facts of Daniel being a stand up guy. I had the pleasure of meeting him the first time I met you in fact and found him to be exactly the guy he was online. His zebra persona makes perfect sense for his branding and what he does with it makes him recognizable in more ways than one.
Like many, I had never heard of the Lones Group until this. I know for me personally, I would never use their services now. Maybe they were the key to my success and utilizing them would have made me the most famous agent on the planet. Oh well, I’ll take the old route – one by one I will seek out those that value what I do and build my brand and business image by observing guys like Daniel and understanding what it is that makes him successful and respected.
I also found myself a little surprised at the use of the word preeminent. Merriam-Webster defines it as such:
As they say in the legal world, I rest my case.
Jay,
Really well written, my friend. As I Tweeted yesterday, I know a few people I’d want in a foxhole with me, you are at the top of the list (and I wrote that BEFORE I knew about this awesome blog post!).
This whole thing just confirms yet again – albeit in an entirely different and unique manner – the power of Social Media…
What I find most ironic is that, if the plaintiff knew ANYTHING about Social Media – I mean, just a SHRED of the reality of it – they would have KNOWN that this incredible backlash was inevitable.
And the backlash is, conservatively speaking, a THOUSAND times worse than the proposed “damages” (hilarious) caused by Daniel, as you’ve already stated.
I cannot imagine what it must be like, if you are the plaintiff, to read this post and all these comments from the EXACT GROUP OF PEOPLE leading the dialogue and the thinking in the very industry that the plaintiff seeks to serve!
Mike’s comment above (sitting in a bar, thinking “WTH did we just do?”) summed it up perfectly.
How will they undo all this self-inflicted digital damage?
Here’s what I would do if I were the plaintiff:
* Retract the lawsuit IMMEDIATELY
* Issue a public apology to Daniel
* Hope and pray that these acts of apology and contrition would compel “us” to delete all we’ve written about this
If they were to take these simple steps, I would forgive them immediately. And I’m *guessing* Daniel would as well, because I know him and his belief system.
My interest in this is NOT to harm the plaintiff, but simply to defend Daniel, whom I consider a personal friend, because he IS a great guy who has made a name for himself by speaking all over the country on the issue of “LOVE” (not kidding!).
Not only that, but if I were to list the people that I know in RE.Net who I think are good, honest, decent, God-fearing, never-hurt-anyone people, Daniel would be at the VERY TOP of that list. And I am NOT saying these things for effect; it is what I really think.
Dear Plaintiff: Drop the lawsuit. You’ve attacked the wrong guy. He doesn’t have a malicious bone in his body. He has done you no harm. Let it go and let his – and your – life get back to normal.
It’s not too late to do the right thing…
Best,
Michael
This is crazy, I have never heard of the Lones Group and think they are just out for money. They are probably mad because Daniel has had so much success and they have not.
Way to go Jay. Hopefully, with a little help from all these comments, your post will be a page 1 for those idiots for years to come.
I have met Daniel at Inman and find him not only to be a gentleman but one with a respected reputation that the Lones group rather than suing should be grateful for. After all two zebras mating produces another zebra, two zebras fighting doesn’t. Another thought, we should contact the actor John Lone of “The Last Emperor”, he was a famous Lone before them and should sue for defamation of character.
Seems to me that Ms. Lones has a *LOT* in common with Horizon Realty…. wonder if anyone has shared this little story with her?
http://mashable.com/2009/07/28/horizon-realty/
While I do not know Daniel Rothamel, I have read his blogs or follow him on twitter. Never heard of the Lones Group…
Filing a lawsuit could be considered by some to be bullying. I do not like bullies, not many people do.
Filing a lawsuit can backfire on you, and this may be the case here.
I keep thinking of the saying “shooting yourself in the foot”.
No legal advice given or intended, I am only stating my opinion. And my opinion is that the Lones people screwed up and could have handled this matter in a much better manner.
I normally don’t jump in on this stuff but feel compelled to purely on the basis of principle. Although many of the comments up here are heartfelt and I am sure appreciated by Daniel, they are just that. Who the *real* winners are in this lawsuit are irrelevant as are the pot shots at The Lones Group.
I too am no lawyer however the subject of trade dress infringement is EXTREMELY hard to prove. Anyone that has seen Coming To America can easily see the humor in this situation. A little known blog building/training company who happens to be in the real estate space suing an agent team because they use the team “real estate” (the industry they are in) and “zebra” (something Daniel has been using since 2006 is absurd. It’s like HomeQuest (the blog company) suing The HomeQuest Group in NYC. The whole notion is retarded.
This lawsuit is frivolous and if Rothamel’s lawyer is worth his salt he will be filing a counter-suit on that basis. I can’t believe this thing started back in July and is not yet resolved. It sounds like The Lones Group sees an opportunity to cash in on Daniel’s viability and is taking it. Stop giving them the attention they don’t deserve.
Simply unbelievable ! Great blog Jay ! The power of social media and karma is immense !
A supportive post and domination on the way. Blow the doors of this ignorant company who obviously is not good at what they are selling. I cant stand people who leverage the legal system in this fashion. Good luck Daniel! Anything we can do to help let us know.
Thanks for this article, Jay. Obviously some hungry lawyer convinced this lady to go and file a lawsuit. They must have just started a nationwide search for the name “Zebra”. No. 1, for geographical reasons, there is no reason forever for a small “wannagrow” West Coast lady in a DIFFERENT business to even think about suing an honest, haradworking, well-known Realtor on the East Coast, blogging for their clients’ and friends’ convenience. Either this lady has illusions of grandeur or very bad legal advice. She should now sue her attorney for the loss of business and injury to her reputation (if she ever had one outside of her hometown) . Because now her name has gone into the annals of real estate as a “do not touch that
one, she’s trouble” business and person” .
Daniel, your friends love and respect you. Don’t give up!
I think the sad part is the cost and time this will take to fight. I spent $20K on a BS lawsuit that never saw the inside of a court room. How crazy! I will link this blog and send in a couple $$! Hopefully this wont BK Daniel!
Best of luck and hang in there!
Whatever “revolution” they started must have involved little plastic men and Lincoln logs.
Philip, that really says it all. I’ll add my own assessment: ‘Big hat, no cattle’
Hi Jay, I had two listings go to foreclosure this week. Not because they didn’t have great offers, but because the banks took months to decide to agree to short sales. Is there some secret government payback to these lenders to foreclose on a certain percentage of loans? I have done everything to stop the foreclosures, but I am talking to deaf ears!
So Zebra nation, counter sue for defamation of character. That one would hold stronger in court that a copywrite infringement. I mean hell, they even named their kid “lilzebra”. How is he going to go through life if his name is somehow an infringement against a company who doesn’t get it?
Wow, Jay. I met Daniel when I first started blogging and he was so well known then. I never heard of these other folks and think Rich has pretty much summed up their business model. Hope they come to their senses soon and drop this suit.
Amen, Michael McClure!
I would be interested to know just how well-known The Lones Group, Inc. is within Belllingham, Washington (not even going to comment on the level of the company’s awareness across the US). Daniel has worked his striped a– off to get national recognition. Perhaps The Lones Group should consider that strategy over trying to destroy another person’s branding and hard work. Shame on them!
I think you nailed it Jay, I read this last night when there was only a few comment’s.
Enjoying the opinions of the folks leading our industry here.
Will continue to get the word out, this effects all of us in managing our online reputation.
This came out of no where, side ways like a philosoraptor sucker punch. Thanks for the hot spotlight attention to make sure all know what is going on. How it ends up. Lady justice with the blindfold and scales has legal wheels that turn very slowly. And spin, sabre rattling, poison pen letters at mega billable hours mean if it goes all the way to court, you and I have time to run a few errands.
Methinks Denise is dating the attorney.
Can’t get over the irony of the Lones Group killing their brand with a legal action to manage their brand. Real estate folk will certainly consider this a tipping point in marketing communications: an ancient method of communication (filing a lawsuit) will almost certainly be overcome by the new methods for creating and managing perception using new media. I wonder if the Tiger Woods spin guys are available to help these Lones people out?
There are now 3 articles showing up on the 1st page of Google for the search term ‘The Lones Group’….this article is just under theirs….
Yea – Lones Group is going to struggle to maintain their own Google ranking for the foreseeable future.
OMG…Drew. No!
Surprised they didn’t file a patent lawsuit, claiming they invented the zebra.
Classic example of how to ruin your company and reputation using social media.
Posted an open letter to the silly schmuck. How bloody unfortunate this whole thing is.
http://activerain.com/blogsview/2158959/open-letter-to-denise-lones-of-the-lones-group-
(delete the link, if you need to Jay, no hard feelings).
I’d like to point out that their “Zebra Blog” is on WordPress.com.
Not to sound like a blog snob, but if they own a real estate social media / internet marketing company that “specializes in helping agents implement new systems… using the latest technology…” why haven’t they figured out how to build and host their own blog on WordPress.org?
I mean, they link to both wordpress.org & .com from their blogroll, so I’m sure they know there is a difference between the two.
Mark, the fact they link to the two does not mean they understand the difference between wordpress.org & wordpress.com as these two links are there by default in a wordpress.com blogroll. The fact they haven’t bothered to take them out speaks to ignorance on the matter.
Or, at the very least, figure out how to map a domain to the site so it doesn’t look amateurish. Even the sidebar links are still some of the default links.
As someone that has filed a copyright infringement lawsuit, I can say that lawsuits aren’t bullying. I know the decision was a difficult one for me as a business owner, but ultimately it was the right choice for me. That said, my case was cut and dry…or rather literally cut and paste. There was no ambiguity in the case for my intellectual property because it was a 100% copy. Not even paraphrased.
I am surprised that Ms. Lones moved forward with such an ambiguous case. I think the sad part is that her print media marketing designs that she does for clients seem to be of good quality. What she grossly misjudged was the internet world. It is clear from her website, twitter and Facebook accounts, and her ActiveRain blogs, that she doesn’t get web 2.0 and how it functions. Her misfortune is in believing that she was better at web marketing than she is and that will cost her business in the short and long term.
A part of me feels really bad for her because having been through a lawsuit, she is woefully unprepared for the stress that is headed her way, and I did mine without a bunch of blogs and comments being written about me.
Sounds like nothing but sour grapes to me. They saw Daniel’s online success and quickly ( or not so quickly) determined the best way to compete with him was to try and destroy him. Funny how people try to undermine others instead of improving themselves.
Oh a couple of people referenced what I said on Twitter before but the USPTO has 347 trademarks in process or registered with the word zebra in it. The don’t have a trademark on The Zebra Report, nor do they have a trademark on the Zebra Blog.
This story is starting to go even more mainstream: http://www.chrisbrogan.com/are-zebras-endangered/
Thanks Jay for sharing this info. I wouldn’t have known about it otherwise. The lawsuit is stupid and a horrible way to gain attention. Last thing I would want is my potential client base to hate me. Guess they really don’t know much about marketing over there in the Lones Group.
Please keep us updated. I look forward to reading about Daniel prevailing….
Yalda
What I’d like to know is if no two zebras have the same exact stripe pattern, how can one sue another for being a copyzebra?
On a more serious note, thank you Jay for an extremely well written article and for setting up the Zebra Defense Fund. Frivolous lawsuits are not only major emotional and physical time sucks; they can be major finance sucks too. I’ve given up a few weeks worth of lattes for Daniel and The Strong Team. I hope everyone else who has commented here, on Facebook and Twitter, has done so too! The power of the word and a couple of bucks from each of us will go miles toward helping Daniel fight this craziness.
Though the folks in the northwest might have set up internet marketing along with Al Gore, their actions speak more of Leslie Gore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesley_Gore
“Judy’s Turn to Cry”
“You Don’t Own Me”
“I Don’t Wanna Be a Loser”
“Brink of Disaster”
“Small Talk”
A quick lawsuit withdrawal and a sincere apology along the lines of “we goofed” would go a long way to changing how people perceive them.
Can’t say how a lawsuit would turn out.
I do know who will always wear the Zebra Suit for us.
Ira Serkes
I was a lawyer for 20 years, and this is precisely the kind of frivolous nonsense that all of us hate, except apparently The Lones Group. Let none of us in the real estate business ever do business with these kind of people. This evil will not be forgotten. The Lones Group. Remember that name.
Perhaps Safari Club International should be contacted. Reading about them http://www.scifirstforhunters.org reveals that they began The Safari Club in the year 2000, and I can’t imagine what they would think about the Lones Group and their Safari Club. After all they both have pictures of animals and I *totally can see one suffering from the others existence. Also interesting is the power of their legal team… Since 2000, SCI has spent $140 million on protecting the freedom to hunt through policy advocacy, litigation and education for federal and state legislators. The big question is… will they be willing to hunt such a cowardly predator as the Lones Group
Find a good mediator or settle. It’s not about the Court of Opinion. It’s about who used the moniker first (usually) and the courts will decide if the first person had the right of expectation to be known by the “brand”.
While I don’t know the Long people, and do know Real Estate Zebra,… it is a disappointment to see a lawsuit instead of a request to mediate first. Makes the Longs out to be the bad guys when maybe the law is on their side…?
Kathy
Kathy, You are a breath of fresh air! It is refreshing to see an intelligent, reasonable comment here. I think it’s a sad weekend for the RE.net. I am heartened that Drew Meyers took a step back in his SEO blog attack. I hope others will take deep breaths also … this “piling on” The Lone Group is shameful, IMHO.
http://soundbiteblog.com/2011/02/26/the-lones-group-vs-daniel-rothamel-a-plea-for-sanity/
Daniel and team are in Virginia, The Lones Group is in Belllingham, Washington. They are 2,869 miles apart. Daniel & Team are Realtors, Lones is an e-spammer. I don’t get the connection. But it goes to show you that anyone can sue anybody for anything now-a-days. Daniel & Team have shared their success tips to many of us & for that I am thankful & I wish them the best.
Way to go Jay you rank number 5 for her main search term ‘The Looser Group’ Let’s all go and Stumble this post and get it ranked number one.
Seems like a frivolous lawsuit to me and that the Lones Group will be hurting themselves by continuing to move forward with it. For the best interests of both parties, I would hope they can work this out quickly out of court and save their money. Better to spend it on growing their business then fighting a lawsuit.
I have only met Daniel once IRL, but it was enough to know he is a A+ guy! He has my support!
Great post Jay. Thanks for using your considerable real estate web capital for such a great purpose – I love that about you!!
How’s Daniel doing?
Times are tough and apparently they need a Lones 😉
But really, has Daniel even made $75K from his blog? He sounds like an excellent person so I hope he has. I would just love to know how these “SM innovators” arrived at this figure, especially since they’re in parallel markets 2000 miles away.
I also really appreciate how most people have such opposing views about things but when it comes to real douchebagery, we all band together. I recently witnessed a similar situation (no actual lawsuit just the threat of one) and the backlash that ensued -http://michaelhalvorsen.com/seo-columbus/
Moral of the story. If someone’s doing it better than you – figure out how to beat them at their own game. Don’t be an ass…erm Zebra (TM).
This is a social media firestorm to protect one of your own. Lawsuits don’t just happen.
My first comment on this today was to the fact the Lones Group logo looks like the Zebra Printing logo which was based in downtown Seattle.
Then the fire storm started, and I now realize this has probably been brewing for some time. The lawsuit seems to be the most focal point of Daniel’s Google search.
We’ll see how it goes.
David,
You commented on my blog.
And I was nice.
And if you turn out to be an SEO company who is attempting to help with “reputation management” services …
I AM GOING TO OUT YOU.
You aren’t that good at it!
Justin
No, I was dragged into this by repeated e-mails. One site, it might have been yours, listed other sites. What I’m finding is you are all feeding off of each other at this Daniel guys expense.
So once again making threats against me gets you where?
This comment out of all the negativity that has been out there this week end bothers me the most.
Did you insult, and threaten me all in one comment, then tell me you were nice not to attack me on your own site?
Well, Justin, I’m just a guy. I’ve been involved in the Real Estate Industry as a service provider for forty years. We clean, paint, construct, do rot work, rehab, invest, consult, and advise.
You are in the mortgage business and have a much higher stake in online Brokerage. You can sell mortgages online much easier than Real Estate. That’s your interest here.
You are interested in that SEO. Maybe if you help the people in online Brokerage they will toss you a couple of deals.
My work is belly to belly, and very geographically located. I’ve worked in the same ten mile radius for forty years, except when I’m out of the country.
It’s interesting to me that some one selling high priced debt instruments would be so out spoken about Real Estate matters. Those over priced debts, sold as Mortgage Backed Securities have crashed the global economy.
Some people think that the electronic sales of debt have been one of the biggest factors to our economic collapse, but I digress.
What you people here have done is spark a negative back lash against Daniel Rothemal. You may think you have expanded his horizons, but you have cloistered him further into your little community. You think because you talk to each other over great distances you are doing something, but Real Estate, as we all know is local.
I’m up this morning talking to my wife, who is in Spain this last week. I know what a great thing Face Book is. We use it to communicate with people all over the world.
Just because we talk over greater distance, that doesn’t translate into a greater community.
… how much traffic have you driven to your blog by taking advantage of your so-called friends legal troubles? Jesus, some people will do anything for backlinks and traffic.
Oh good grief.
Actually, I’m surprised it took almost 24 hours for some knucklehead to grace us with their presence.
Yes, this post has attracted a lot of readers, and several people have linked to it.
And the readers of this article, and those linking to it are exactly the kind of people that might be buying or selling real estate in Phoenix. You’re right, that’s why I did it.
If you knew Jay personally, you’d know your comment was an outrageous comment.
like ;.)
Good job Jay! The pen is mightier than the sword! Maybe it will end up as……
“The Lones Group stands alone? “
A litte more on this: http://p1fran.com/2011/02/let-my-zebra-go/.
A few things that I find interesting:
1. While some people consider a “brand” a logo, mark, graphic identity, etc., a brand is actually developed through an experience with a company or organization — the graphic marks simply acts to support that brand. A brand lives in the mind of the public. Based on what I have read on this blog and many others, in the public’s mind, Daniel overwhelmingly owns the Zebra brand (aside from actual zebras, as many have noted).
2. In order for a brand mark (logo, etc.) to be powerful and effective, it should be organic to the company (and the experience you get) — in other words, does it make sense? Or does it make people scratch their heads? The Zebra brand makes sense to me with Daniel — he very simply explains right upfront on his “About” page that he enjoys real estate and enjoys being a referee, and that this blog brings both of his passions together. Referees are sometimes referred to as a “Zebra” — hence, The Real Estate Zebra. On the other hand, I have looked around a good deal of the The Lones Group site, read about all of their products, checked out some of their upcoming classes, and I cannot for the life of me understand why they even started using the name Zebra. What does it help communicate about their products or services? I am left scratching my head.
3. I wonder if all of the The Lones Group clients realize that the designs on their marketing materials are owned by The Lones Group. See the legal page of The Lones Group site: “All Marketing Makeover designs are registered copyrights of The Lones Group Inc.” So even the work that clients pay for are still owned by The Lones Group.
Just 2 cents (well, maybe 3 cents) from a professional design and marketing consultant.
Unfreakinbelievable. Me? Speechless? Impossible but true.
Jay, I was just thinking the answer to this might be for Daniel to change the order of his stripes. Problem solved. :S Hey, if they were stupid enough to sue in the first place, they might be stupid enough to settle on this.
Feel free to link to my post on this stupid situation at peterbrewer.com
Jay,
After reading your post I decided to pre-emptively file a law suit against myself on your behalf, for my use of “warner robins real estate guy” on my website. Although we are 2,000 miles apart, It is very likely that potential clients of yours in Phoenix, mistakenly bought a home through me, here in Warner Robins, GA.
I am seeking $75 million in damages on your behalf. Although I will argue that every city deserves its own “real estate guy,” people may assume that there is a connection between us. (and trust me…you dont want to be associated with me!)
Please forward any money you can for my defense fund and invite all your readers to contribute toward my defense against this viscious lawsuit that I filed for you against me.
I will now go change my name to the Warner Robins Real Estate Zebra.
This legal action is ill-conceived. Did Prudential, that has every intellectual protection on The Rock® come after Duane “The Rock” Johnson? No. Some things just aren’t worth it. But I would advise against going with iRealtor or McRealtor. You’d get hurt there…~Mike
You people are pathetic.
It’s no longer about facts, is it. All that matters now is what the sycophantic real estate social media “experts” think.
All I can say is that you people deserve each other.
all I can say is that Jack doesn’t know Jack
“Jack” – can you please point out what in my post is not factual? Sure there is lots of opinion in there, but nowhere did I fault the business practices of The Lones Group.
Are you denying that their name and brand is in the process of being destroyed? This and other articles aren’t destroying their name, THEY are destroying their name by their actions.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion though, it’s a free country. I am also entitled to mine.
As for the other sycophants here, at least they have the integrity to use their full names….
Jack, the facts are that Denise Lones got some sketchy legal advice and is hanging her hat (and her business) on a bit of law that makes some assumptions that Lones won’t be able to demonstrate in court.
I’ll expand on that later.
Jack a lawsuit is war. If Newman&Newman didn’t prepare Denise for the fact that mud was going to be thrown at her, she was going to be picked apart, and her integrity was going to be questioned, then they did a poor job of preparing her for what was headed her way.
What you see as facts on her side, people see the facts on Daniel’s side. The reason attorneys make money is because the law is about that fine line and is the reason attorney’s exist as a profession.
I’m glad that she has some supporters out there because I am sure that she was woefully unprepared for the internet onlslaught that is staring her in the face. Just because you think you have the facts and law on your side, doesn’t mean that is what a judge or jury will think.
I have no idea which way this will go, but the case is completely weak based on what is in the complaint. They allude to some smoking gun in there, but I find it fascinating that her attorneys didn’t attach that as an exhibit. The problem they just created for her is that many people have read the complaint which as written is crap. This allows people to make judgments about the Lones Group based on that. If they wanted to protect their client from this onslaught they should have included the exhibits in the original document. Then all the facts you allude to could have been looked at in conjunction with the complaint.
This man speaks the truth.
My first questions is, even if both parties are using a “zebra” in their branding/marketing, what “material damages” have they suffered from it considering the geographical distances where they do business? This doesn’t make any sense……
This whole thing is outrageous! I’ve known about Daniel and the Real Estate Zebra since 2007 and I’ve been a long admirer. I’ve never heard of the Lones group before today and I live and work just a wee bit south of them in Tacoma, Washington.
This company gives vendors like me a bad name. They know nothing about true branding, they think it’s slapping some pretty colors into a brochure or website. They obviously know nothing about internet marketing or they’d be number one at Google for ‘real estate marketing’ and they know nothing about using social media or they’d have some sort of visibility there. Oh, they have a MySpace page… how 2005.
In the response they’re sending out, they mention that their customers were getting confused and thought that the Lones Group was associated with the Real Estate Zebra. They should BE so lucky, their company pales by comparison and it would have added to their reputation to be linked to such a pillar of the community.
I created a post at my blog about the situation and I linked to this post and many other great posts. I used the precise titles of these posts as the anchor text to ensure some good Google juice. My blog has a page rank of 6/10 – as it should for someone who helps agents with SEO.
They weren’t even a blip on the RE.net before… now, they’ve buried themselves.
Should you wish to include it, the link to my blog post: The Lones Group Sues the Real Estate Zebra and Murders Their Brand
Jay,
Help me out, I have tried to find Lones Group, Inc. on a trademark search, nada. Nothing for Zebra Report that I could find, anyone else want to give it a try?
http://tess2.uspto.gov/
Second, here is a link by Joseph Ferrara way back in October of 2006 announcing The Real Estate Zebra.
Third,
A search for “Zebra People” on Google was not very productive is their response as them being known for.
I know Jay didn’t want to link to their site, so I’ll just say this:
/legal.asp
I’ve heard a few people mention trademarks and whether one exists or not and remembered seeing this when I was looking for some mention of what’s going on at their site.
They don’t have a trademark on the Zebra Report or the Zebra Blog. I believe they have a trademark on their company name and logo.
Someone looked it up for me.
Jay,
Help me out, I have tried to find Lones Group, Inc. on a trademark search, nada. Nothing for Zebra Report that I could find, anyone else want to give it a try?
http://tess2.uspto.gov/
Second, here is a link by Joseph Ferrara way back in October of 2006 announcing The Real Estate Zebra.
Third,
A search for “Zebra People” on Google was not very productive in their response as them being known for.
Sorry link to The Real Estate Zebra announcement:
http://blog.sellsiusrealestate.com/residential-real-estate/the-real-estate-zebra/2006/10/04/
As of a few minutes ago the domain name: TheZebraReport.com was still available at GoDaddy.com Seems like this would be a great name for her blog instead of the thelonesgroup.wordpress.com just saying…
That is so tempting to buy that domain
go for it, Loren!…
just tried but someone else already did it
“Go for it,” huh?
Did you ever hear of the Realtor Code of Ethics, Article 12? This Standard of Practice was added last year.
“Standard of Practice 12-10
REALTORS®’ obligation to present a true picture in their advertising and representations to the public includes the URLs and domain names they use, and prohibits REALTORS® from:
“engaging in deceptive or unauthorized framing of real estate brokerage websites; manipulating (e.g., presenting content developed by others) listing content in any way that produces a deceptive or misleading result; or deceptively using metatags, keywords or other devices/methods to direct, drive, or divert Internet traffic, or to otherwise mislead consumers. (Adopted 1/07)”
If a REALTOR purchased that domain name, Denise Lones will have an EXCELLENT case with a Professional Standards panel. REALTORS cannot purchase domain names applied to other brands for the purposes of (1) pointing those domains or (2) squatting on those domains.
Frances, There’s really a Realtor code of ethics? After all this time I thought it was just some folk lure thing. Funny thing is, when I finally joined the NAR I didn’t suddenly wake up the next day with a big smile because I found some ethics. At best it’s a fair piece of marketing material for someone to latch onto when they have nothing else. Upon my next renewal, I’m dropping out of the NAR. Sorry to say, I see no value being a member. For now on, Realtor is replaced with agent
Never underestimate the power of word of mouth marketing. The real value in social media is in offline relationships.
Man – I’ve been quiet all day for fear of saying something I’d regret, but damn. I just can’t resist.
I own a Federal Trademark on our company. Will we protect that trademark? Damn straight… with vigor.
However, I don’t understand how The Lones Group even thinks this can make it to trial. You don’t get to casually “brand” a report, and lackadaisically decide 4 years later to tell someone – who has actually been branded (with something better than a free sub-domain) for 5 years – that they can’t do that. Even if I were to protect my federally protected trademark, I’d be hard-pressed to win if there is a stitch of evidence that my counterpart had been using that same brand for 5 freakin years.
Lones Group – I’m sure you didn’t realize how frivolous your suit was when you filed it, but frivolous suits can be exponentially more expensive than anticipated. If you think it’s ugly now – wait until you get the legal bill from your attorneys – as well as Strong Realty’s attorneys after you lose the case.
I’m not only contributing to the legal fund to help in Strong Realty’s defense, but I’m also planning on sending any/all link-love I possibly can – toward this post to make sure that when Lones Group’s future clients check their firm out – those clients get to see IN BLACK AND WHITE what their true colors really are.
Customer service, huh? What a way to show what wonderful folks you are! And, as I said on someone else’s blog–way to bite the hand that feeds you! Marketing to real estate professionals? WHO would use them now?
Unreal how stupid these people could be. Are they still delusional to think they’ll win? They will easily become a case study in how not to do business. Big mistake. However is it refreshing to see so many people come to Daniel’s defense. I’ve followed him over the last few years and he seems like a very good person, although we have never met.
Jay, you can find some “articles” by Denise Lones, on Brokeragentsocial.com…where she tries selling her “expertise” to a class of agents who just don’t know any better.
Wouldn’t it be funny if Lones’s posts on the site were flooded with people their frustrations.
The larger point here however, is the problem with agents who feel the need to tell everyone they’re experts, when we all know few are. Once you use the word “expert” or the like, you open the flood gates to criticism.
What I love about your site is that you’re not trying to sell something here. You provide information that you feel is important, funny, sad etc, and if it’s attractive to someone they’ll call you. It’s perfect selling.
The line gets blurred when all these experts have something to sell.
Well their print market materials are beautiful but their website grade isn’t all that for a Real Estate marketing revolutionary on website grader: http://goo.gl/U6m1e
This is a classic example of someone’s cheese getting moved and it reminds me of the agents who blamed, cried, whined and refused to conform to the new normal when our market changed instead of trying to be productive & running out and trying to figure out where their cheese is.
They (the plaintiffs) have even been active on Active Rain in the last months of 2010 probably trying to ramp up business.
I am thinking this is a last ditch effort to blame someone for a business that is becoming extinct. Maybe they should just change their logo to a dinosaur.
Memo: The real estate marketing revolution is not in print anymore the cheese is in the world wide web somewhere. Go find it.
The stupid thing here is, that Lones has no provable damages that came from Mr. Rothamel using his own brand of zebra, and that’s the basis of any of these lawsuits. She will have to go a long way to prove that she is the preeminent anything in the real estate field, and she will have to prove that as part of showing real damages.
It’s hard to believe that a lawsuit of this nature would just come out of nowhere, when the first thing that is usually done, is for the complaining company to first contact the other to state their claim, and to ask the them to remove the infringement.
Am I missing something here, beyond the stupidity of this whole unnecessary mess
Never heard of Lones Group and really not sure what that name has to do with Zebras, anyway…since I refuse to check them out on the web and google them I will take your word for the fact they are a viable company.
If they provide real estate agents with anything…I dare say they have cooked their proverbial a** when they decided to sue Daniel who is the real estate zebra as we all know and love. NOT too smart!!
I’m thinking Daniel will end up on the better end of this one, thanks to folks like you, Jay.
They should add this article to their “In the Media” page.
Bummer that situations like this happen, reminds me of the Sarasota Association of Realtors vs Rasmussen ordeal.
http://www.pasadenaviews.com/real-estate-zebra-should-not-lose-his-stripes/
Smart marketing group The Lones Group is ”¦. google “zebra” they don’t even show up
on the first 20 pages ( got tired of looking past 20 pages) ”¦.. Lots of other “zebras” for them to file suit against!
Jay ”¦ Love your new logo design .. maybe we should all post a zebra on our web sites instead of wearing yellow wrists bands ”¦.
This reminds me of how eperks (largely rebranded eJerks) killed their reputation and business stone cold dead.
Are these guys in Washington state related to Charlie Sheen? Looks like the same pattern of name suicide.
Tonto,
Send up a signal to my attorney. Someone has stolen my trade mark protected name The Lone Ranger and changed it to The Lone Group. We will sue them…… no wait my faithful friend….they added an (s)…..is it too late to cancel the message before all goes up in smoke?
Chill Kimosabe
http://soundbiteblog.com/2011/02/28/lessons-learned-through-social-media/
That’s too bad the Lones Group has started such a negative firestorm.
I’m a licensed real estate broker in Washington State and I’ve attended classess that Denise has put on and found her to be an excellent speaker.
I even went so far as to hire her company for a rather expensive branding effort a few years back.
While I think their company produces some nice looking printed products, they seem to be a bit behind on the whole “Internet” thing.
For me, the lack of deep understanding of social media is most likely the explanation for their actions. I’m sure they are surprised and shocked by the backlash.
Perhaps they’ll pull back and apoligize?
If anyone is interested, I posted a short (for me) update at the bottom of the article.
Jay, It’s great to see someone sticking up for their friend. You seem t be a great friend to have. I should only be so lucky to have a few friends like you. If it happens, I’ll consider myself lucky in life.
Clint Miller is lucky to have you as a friend as well. When you’re threatened with his situation, who care about all this other crap. Please provide an update.
I really don’t believe in God, but just in case I’m wrong…I’ll say a few more prayers for him and his family:)
I read your story on the airplane on my iphone, so i couldn’t do any follow up research but I agree with your comments exactly…..
My first thought was, “You’ve got to be freaking kidding me,” followed swiftly by, “Who the hell is The Lones Group?”
Jay: I’m sure that the people who have accused you of ‘piling’ will no doubt gloat within their tiny circles of association and boast about how they have influenced you to temper your voice, and single-handedly saved the RE.net from sure destruction!
Jay,
I totally agree with your update. It IS either (1) or (2), as you stated it. There are no other logical explanations…
Best,
Michael
Jay, You say:
“they either: 1) do not understand how social media and networking can impact a brand’s perception; or 2) they know, they weighed it, and they chose to move ahead anyway.”
So far, the story has been about The Lones Group. Take those words and apply the same line of thinking to NAR now. The social media director of NAR inserted himself in the middle of a Federal lawsuit involving TWO REALTORS, took sides ON THE NAR BLOG PLATFORM with the words, “I am a member of this angry mob,”
http://speakingofrealestate.blogs.realtor.org/2011/02/28/the-biggest-mistake-i-ever-made-online-and-what-i-did-to-stop-the-bleeding/
Do you think Todd Carpenter: 1) does not understand how social media and networking can impact a brand’s perception; or 2) he knows, he weighed it, and he chose to move ahead anyway.
I think this is a lesson for everyone.
Frances – was it really necessary to publicly Tweet:
“223 blog comments and mine sits in moderation while others are published on @PhxREguy blog. http://ht.ly/45yq8”
http://twitter.com/FrancesFlynnTho/status/42598606712217601
Your comment was written at 7:01am It’s now 8:06am. It was held in moderation because of the link — I have to seriously dial up my filters to avoid comment spam so the system hold comments with links until I can approve them.
Good grief.
Jay,
Sorry. It was a knee jerk response. I saw another comment with a time stamp earlier than my post and I assumed (incorrectly) you were passing over it. This whole matter makes me sick and my nerves are on edge. I issued an apology on Twitter also.
I also said, “If #1 is correct, then I hope they and others can learn from this”
So I agree with you. It is a lesson for everyone. You. me, Todd, The Lones Group, Daniel, and anyone else involved, interested or curious about social media /networking.
This article was never intended to be directed solely to the Lones Group.
And thank you for apologizing on Twitter for your “knee jerk reaction” about your comment being held in moderation for an hour. This whole thing has my nerves on a raw edge too.
A LOT of comments on this one Jay. I was actually subscribed to Denise Lones blog. Her posts are a bit “selly,” but she does seem to know her stuff when it comes to marketing.
Note the use of past tense in this comment. I have now unsubscribed myself from her blog. These actions show an arrogance that leaves me (almost) speechless.
Your post as usual is very compelling. As is Bob Stewart’s on ActiveRain. You are two people I think highly of and I take notice when either of you write – Especially when you do it with such passion. This is not “piling on,” it’s standing up for someone who is being unfairly treated.
Maybe it is #2 – as an unconventional way of gaining backlinks for SEO.
Currently, the top links to The Lones Group are from bloggers that have been writing about this story.
Either way, I do agree that this is a lesson in social media and online branding that everyone should learn from.
Wow, this would be a very slimy way to generate backlinks and traffic!
The complaint gives it a way.
Daniel has a “reason” for using stripes. The complaint says he is intentionally trying to divert sales.
It’s civil – she better be able to prove to the *jury demand* 51% that he intentionally chose a Zebra in order to confuse people.
That’s gonna be hard.
Zebra Marketing company http://www.zebrapromos.com has been in service for 11 years. SOMEONE in the SAME INDUSTRY is using THEIR common trademark WITHOUT permission. I for one got completely confused!
I am a Realtor in Bellingham, WA (where the Lones Group is located) and I’ve been reading the Lones Group newsletter for years. She is an excellent speaker, she does training for the GRI designation, and she also contributes to Realtor Magazine. So she is very credible and I’ve always had a lot of respect for the Lones Group’s training and marketing programs. She knows her stuff.
But this does not make any sense. I don’t know what she (or “they”) were thinking. I am definitely rooting for the defendant to win and think it’s a shame “The Real Estate Zebra” even has to go to court and deal with this. There must be more context to this, but either way, I don’t like it.
Well, where to begin? I wrote a zebra report in 1957. I don’t remember what kind of grade I got for it, but I know it doesn’t compare to the one linked below!
I have read several “Zebra Reports” following numerous NFL games. When it comes to maketing, I think the NFL might have a bigger rep that the Lones Group.
If you google “zebra reports” a cute MySpace video pops up. http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/104899350
And then there’s the 9 and 10 o’clock “zebra report”. http://iwitness.weather.com/_my-zebra-report-on-9-and-10-news/video/1524374/148597.html
I wonder if these “zebra reports” are going to be on somebody’s legal radar?
Regardless of what comes of this in the court system, the jury (of peers) have spoken. I do believe that this move by the Lones Group shows an utter lack of understanding of what the social media space is even about.
Think about this. If I ask you – “name your top 5 social marketing influencers in the real estate space” I have, over and over again, received a list of people that I know (or would like to know) and mutually respect as innovators and selfless teachers/sharers.
Not once has anyone ever answered that a “company” was their biggest influence.
Ok, so my point here is that it doesn’t matter if Daniel called himself the real estate Sloth – he would still attract attention, admiration and he would still be an influencer and thought leader because of who he is as a person.
On it’s surface, this is a fundamental lack of understanding of what works in social marketing and what does not work in social marketing.
The assumption being made here is that if the Lones Group teaches someone how to use Twitter that it’s better or different from anyone else’s explanation of what Twitter is?
If you call yourself a “social marketing guru” or claim that your “company” is the leader in this, that or the other thing…it doesn’t make it so.
Anyone that has truly achieved success in the social marketing space knows that it’s the relationships stupid.
Just because you can take advantage of the next sucker to come along looking for a magic bullet doesn’t make you a teacher or influencer.
Success from social marketing does not come from a magic formula or the shiny object peddled by some social marketing snake oil salesman.
Daniel has just given us the most profound and real lesson in social media(marketing) and he taught/shared this lesson long ago. Be yourself, be genuine, love thy neighbor, share everything you have learned and don’t take yourself so seriously.
Just a few thoughts…glad I got this off my chest, I feel better now.
This “jury of peers” as you describe them, has spoken. This is not a court of law and Denise Lones has not surrendered to an online mob of cyberbullies who use intimidation and social media blackmail to extort “cooperation”. She is not bound to serve herself up to the mob.
Instead, she is standing on principle.
Denise Lones is a distinguished teacher with a long record of achievement.
I agree that Daniel has given us a lesson. I have been watching and listening intently. Daniel issues words of “love” at the same time he says, “keep doing it”. Doesn’t he see what havoc these people are causing in his name? Doesn’t he see the mind numbing wave of immoral and ethically irresponsible behavior issued in the name of friends’ loyalty? Is he really OK with that? Is he really blind to the devastating, malicious conduct of his “followers”? How can any man be that blind?
I know Daniel. I have always liked Daniel. He disappoints me profoundly. He never told the marauders, “Stop!” Daniel had a chance to become a true leader this week and he blew that chance to smithereens!
So did every other social media leader in the RE net.
None of the purported “thought leaders” in the real estate industry stepped up to the plate and told the marauders, “Stop.” Not a single speaker, author, or other “leader” had the vision or the courage to identify social media malfeasance, weigh the consequences, and address the issue. It is easier to call mob rule “community” … Calling this mob a “community” is the single biggest crock of nonsense I’ve heard in years. In politics it’s called spin. It’s also called hyperbole. If I was in tune with the lexicon of the RE net speaking circuit I’d select more colorful language to describe it. I will not stoop to the level of issuing angry, fashionable “F” bombs.
I think Zebragate casts a dark cloud over the real estate Net. There is a total lack of leadership in the real estate social media space. I have lost complete respect for people I admired for years and I am deeply saddened.
The single most awesome, dignified, and intelligent person I have met in this whole mess in one DENISE LONES. If this havoc was met by a lesser person, the outcome would not be the same. Denise Lones will persevere. History will not be kind to the marauders. I’d bet my life on it.
That’s my rant for the day … I’m getting back to work. I fell better now, too.
Frances –
You just wrote, “None of the purported “thought leaders” in the real estate industry stepped up to the plate and told the marauders, “Stop.” Not a single speaker, author, or other “leader” had the vision or the courage to identify social media malfeasance, weigh the consequences, and address the issue.”
So neither Drew Meyers’ clarification post on the Virtual Results blog, nor my follow up post yesterday qualifies as “stepping up to the plate”? That’s not how I interpret your comment on Drew’s post nor your public Tweet to me yesterday. But maybe I’m just reading those wrong and/or you don’t consider Drew and I to be “thought leaders in the real estate industry”. (Note, I’m not saying I am a thought leader, but you yourself did call me a “celebrity” yesterday).
In my follow up post, I didn’t tell people to “stop”, though I felt like I strongly said in my opinion that it should stop. As I wrote in that post, I can’t make anyone do something.
I guess despite writing an article with a heartfelt apology and de-indexing my original article, you still consider me a “cyberbully”, a “marauder”, part of a “mob”, participating in a “wave of immoral and ethically irresponsible behavior” and that I “use intimidation and social media blackmail”.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. Personally, I think the names you just called me and many other people qualify as “bullying” too. But hey, that’s just my opinion.
My Tweets and my personal outreach reflect the feelings in my heart that acknowledge your secondary post and Drew’s secondary post. That does not change the fact of the devastation happening in The Lones Group world, however.
Let’s work with an analogy: A couple of guys run over a woman on a crosswalk because they are not paying attention to the consequences of lack of attention. A couple of days later they say, “We’re sorry we ran you over.”
Do we give these guys a medal? Say. “They’re great guys!”
Is that what you want? … a medal?
Jay, Denise Lones and her company are suffering dire consequences as a result of a mob mentality. You helped start the flame and you and Drew fanned it. I understand you heart is in the second post but that post does little to nothing to abate the damage you caused and the damage that ensues today and shows no sign of letting up.
In your heart you are a gentleman. I know that. The consequences of your actions are the consequences a bully exacts from a victim. You are responsible for those consequences.
Your original post (still live) is still active, inviting toxic comments. I responded to one this morning and that makes ME a bully? I am the ONLY person in the RE net to write a major post calling you guys out and I am the bully? Give me a break, Mr.Thompson! That is one for the books. At least you give me a good reason to laugh today.
Glad I could give you another chuckle Frances. Laughter is the best medicine.
OK, maybe “bully” wasn’t the best choice of words. I’m a real estate broker, not a trained writer. Would you prefer “name caller”? That seems to fit. Unless calling people cyberbullies, marauders, unethical and immoral doesn’t fit in what you consider name calling.
Whatever word you chose, it is interesting to me that you can dish out the verbal attacks and that’s apparently acceptable as long as no one else does it. Maybe you don’t consider calling me unethical and immoral an attack, but I do. I certainly NEVER called you or Denise those names. That you AND Denise chose to call others these names is your choice.
You can call me whatever you want to Frances, as I’ve already said you are entitled to your own opinion — as I am entitled to mine. (and thanks by the way for calling me a gentleman).
Yes, my original post is still live, obviously as we are commenting on it. It’s also set to “noindex” for all the reasons I set forth in my follow up post. If that’s not good enough for you, oh well. I did what I felt was the right thing to do with it. You are free to disagree with that action, or free to feel I didn’t do enough.
For the record, I’m glad the original post is still live — it’s allowing us to have the very discussion we are having right now. I’m also glad that you and some others made me see the error of my ways and made me decide to de-index it.
And for the record, no, I don’t want a medal. What I wanted from the moment I typed the first word in the original post is to help people understand how their actions can impact perceptions in the social networking space. I tried to explain that again in the follow up post too. Did I succeed in that? Certainly not to everyone. But it appears that some others did get the message. That’s about all I know to do. I can’t hold a gun to anyone’s head and make them do something. I can explain what I did wrong, apologize, and hope that some people follow suit.
Frances ”“ your, in my opinion, over reaction and making Denise out to be a victim isn’t helping her cause any, such as it may be. That aside, I find the implication that readers of this and other blogs act as so many mindless sheep who rely on the words of Jay or Drew as propaganda. We are all adults here, Frances, last I checked, quite capable of making whatever decisions we make based on publicly available information. The lawsuit was made public (to my knowledge) by Innman News, not Jay. Jay stated his opinion and asked for financial and emotional support for his friend. Can you really fault anyone for that, or attempt to muzzle them really by brining up NAR’s COE and morality into the equation?
Forcing one to defend a brand they’ve had for as long as Daniel via a juried trial lawsuit IS what Denise is now paying for. Does she have to right to sue? ”“ Certainly, as does anyone else in this country. Do you have the right to tell anyone to not discuss a public case or challenge how we discuss it? I think that’s pushing it. I feel bad for Denise, I truly do, but I feel a LOT worse for any business owner who may not have the social capital that Daniel has, who may be find themselves in a similar situation, and not necessarily because they did something wrong, but simply because they are smaller than the one wishing to sue. That is why I hope Daniel fights this battle, if he can.
As for the name calling, I find that very beneath you, Frances. You don’t need to throw f-bombs to offend someone. Just insult good people after having praised these same actions by them. Hypocritical doesn’t begin to cover it.
The lesson here Frances, and it’s been said over and over, is that we need to really think of the repercussions of any law suit, especially in the age of social media. I think we can agree that both Denise and Daniel have suffered, as as much as we may know one or the other, or feel a special relation with either…the sequence of events have been unfortunate FOR BOTH!! Are we going to point fingers at who instigated the mess? because if that’s what we’re doing, we should really scrutinize the facts.
I have been on the receiving end of bullying for a long time and appreciate my friends standing up for me ….my choice is to not respond, but we can’t ask that of everyone. And for the record, Daniel is a stand up guy and did not instigate this at all, let’s not go that route please.
Frances – I’m a little late getting to this, but I feel that I must say something. I’ve read your comments all over the blogosphere for the past few years. I admit that I do not follow you in any social media venue, so my only impressions of you comes from these comments. I’m a little flabbergasted at some of the things you are saying in regards to this situation. First, I don’t know how can make the jumo that this is in any way a possible Ethics complaint. Just becuase Ms. Lones has a real estate license and is a dues paying member to NAR doesn’t mean she is protected in all aspects of her life by the COE. Her marketing firm is well outside the scope of her real estate license and her membership with NAR. Therefore, in IMHO, anything that someone says about her in connection with The Lones Group is not subject to COE. You can’t hide behind your REALTOR(R) status. What if I owned a car wash? Are you saying that because I’m a REALTOR(R) and I could wash another REALTORS(R) car that they could not express their unhappiness with my services? To me, the same thing applies here. Likewise, if you are a convicted child molester and somehow manage to obtain a real estate license, your past would not be protected by the COE. And, just because you used to be a REALTOR(R), if you are currently not paying dues, you aren’t protected. If Ms. Lones made a bad business decision pubically, then the public has a right to weigh in on it. Lawsuits are public knowledge and the nature of this lawsuit has hit some people close to their hearts. If Ms. Lones’s business is hurting becuase of her business decision, she just needs to deal with it. And, if she can compare her re-branding to the likes of Coca-Cola and Pepsi, she should be prepared to be held under the same microscope. You may not like the backlash that Ms. Lones is experiencing, but this is the business world in the age of social media.
Frances, I’ve seen you make some pretty snide comments about REALTORS(R) and their business practices, or what you perceive their business practices are, on several social media sites. So, I’m a little taken aback that you are lashing out at the “mob.” I also find it interesting that someone who is not currently a REALTOR(R) would bring up the very Code that they, themselves, do not have to abide by. Where is your pony in this race? Are you paid by Ms. Lones? Are you a client and can attest to the quality of her product? Are you a close friend? Or do you just like stirring a hornet’s nest? I’m curious.
This is in no way a personal attack on you or Ms. Lones, it is just some of my observations.
My personal opinion is that this lawsuit wouldn’t have been such a big deal if people had heard of The Lones Group prior to the suit. Many people in this industry have met Daniel and have a very high opinion of him. On the outside this looks like a big company picking on a REALTOR(R) from a tiny town, Fluvanna – he actually sells in Fluvanna, not Charlottesville, on the other side of the continental U.S.
I’m sorry, I may be slow but I still don’t see how any of this is bullying one way or the other? Daniel is a bad guy because he is NOT telling his friends NOT to defend him? I have always been, and am still, under the impression that the internet was made to get one’s voice out there to be heard and considered. A blog epitomizes that, does it not? This is no different then a group of people sitting around a water cooler and talking about their feelings on any subject. The only difference is that now it’s out there for the world to see. If it were on the news and an anchor said that they felt one way or another would it be bullying and irresponsible? I think not.
I know everyone has their own opinion and I respect all of them however the only thing I cannot respect is censorship and telling people not to speak their mind is just that.
This is a legal matter, it will be settled in court. In the meantime say what you want about it as long as you can be respectful of one another right?
oh no frances, I think you are about to be served with a lawsuit for libel
#Francesdefensefund
As a former Realtor and current web & graphic designer, the Lones group really has now ground to file a lawsuit from. Their logo does not include the zebra, and they don’t have a zebra trademarked. If Daniel had directly stolen a zebra logo from Lones, then there would be basis. But just because she supports her marketing with a zebra, doesn’t mean she owns the rights to zebra imagery everywhere.
Frances, there is no excuse for anyone that would make a personal or malicious attack attack toward Denise, and maybe I’ve just missed it – but i’m not really getting that from any of these conversations.
Social media is a public place with nowhere to hide. Those that think more about themselves and their own interests tend to find friction in this environment.
I appreciate both sides of this and have simply chosen to comment impartially about the conversation that is taking place here.
I don’t care who is right or wrong in the legal sense, that’s not for “us” to decide.
I do however find it fascinating to see the flash support phenomenon that has erupted around Daniel. The “trial by peers” comment is important because nobody “has to” chime in here.
I think that Denise had a right to file a lawsuit, and I hope for her sake that it was the result of bad advice from someone that she no longer employs.
Any damage caused to any party in this discussion is not due to being the victim of mob (verbal) violence. Most of what I am seeing here is intelligent discussion and reflection on the situation/predicament.
This kind of passionate discussion cannot be prevented, stopped or censored. Nor would you want it to be.
Being empowered with a voice and a medium through which to express your voice is something that once given, is near impossible to suppress (think Turkey).
This whole thing really just falls into the “you made your bed” category. There is no grand conspiracy or organized effort to sway this discussion one way or another.
I think Jay will agree that you would be giving him a little too much credit to imply that he is a “cause” of the mood of this discussion. Love ya Jay, but I just don’t think you’re that organized!
“Love ya Jay, but I just don’t think you’re that organized!”
Ask my lovely wife about my organizational skills. Or rather the complete lack thereof… 😉
Sorry, I missed all of this I have been out selling real estate.
“Your original post (still live) is still active, inviting toxic comments.”
Yes, it is….and they’re coming from you…..
“I am the ONLY person in the RE net to write a major post calling you guys out and I am the bully?”…
Have you asked yourself that question? Why are you the only one in the entire social media universe enlightened enough to call everyone else wrong? Could it be, and I’m just making a HUGE leap here, but just maybe your viewpoint ISN’T correct?
I have acknowledged and honored the energy going into loving support for Daniel Rothamel. That is the wonderful side of social media. There is a large contingent of marvelous people who demonstrate genuine care and affection. I have no problem with that.
I never called “everyone” wrong … you are grasping at silly hyperbole and your words and actions in this affair speak volumes for the degree of serious discourse you bring to the table in Zebragate.
I draw the line at intimidation, threats, social media blackmail of The Lones Group. These behaviors take many forms. My problem is not about the lawsuit. People are entitled to form an opinion and share their thoughts in a civil manner. I have not even weighed in with an opinion about the lawsuit. I don’t think this has anything to do with a lawsuit any longer.
The lawsuit became irrelevant when the mob struck. Inciting boycotts, stuffing Google, and deliberate attempts to ruin a person’s business are unconscionable. I liken it to a mob.
Jeff Turner wrote a thoughtful post that said, “Your brand is what people feel when they think about you.” (I’m not looking at the post, but that is what I think he said.) I think the RE net is a brand. When I think of that brand I feel disgust associated with thoughts of an online mob, thuggery, and bullying. People watching this, reading the posts, are making the same assessment in increasing numbers.The “social media universe” is much bigger than the tiny little corner where the RE net and the bullies reside.
Inman made a valuable contribution to the conversation with an article pointing to serious issues. This is a very serious affair. There will be consequences in the camps of the thugs. You can be sure about that.
Frances – does it maybe strike you that your bringing the very much irrelevant to this case NAR’s COE in the attempt to silence negative opinions of the Lones Group decision to file this lawsuit is, itself, a bullying or at the very least intimidating tactic? An when did you become anointed the arbiter of re net?
And let us not ignore that thinly veiled threat in the very last line of the above comment by you. It must be very inconvenient to talk out of both sides of your mouth.
Well, it’s obvious that there is a huge disparity between your view and what is clearly the majority opinion on this matter. The so-called ‘Thugs’ and ‘Bullies’ you keep referring to constitute an extremely small percentage of the overwhelming tide of support (mob), if they, in fact, ever existed. What has been unfortunate though are some of the comments made which cross the line from opinion to personal slander. It’s completely acceptable to disagree with someone’s position or actions, but quite another to say they’re retarded or stupid. Such comments bear a poor reflection on our industry.
Denise Lones and her company are suffering dire consequences, but not because of what you personally perceive to be a mob attack, but by virtue of a decision they made to pursue this legal action.
Rich,
Your post suggests I used the words “stupid” or “retarded.” That is a highly misleading statement. You are fabricating fiction. More hyperbole. That’s it for the day.
Inna,
The Realtor Code of Ethics is not irrelevant. Realtors who engage publicly in gross infractions of the Realtor Code of Ethics may find themselves sitting in Professional Standards Hearings very soon. That statement does not wear a thin veil. That is a possibility and likelihood. Those hearings are disciplinary in nature and they happen when other Realtors or the public are aggrieved. That is not a threat. Threats look very different … I have been writing and teaching about social media risk management for quite some time.
Frances, and if Denise Lones and Daniel were engaged in a dispute involving a real estate transaction, you’d have a leg to stand on by bringing the COE into this. I think you invoked it in this case to muzzle opinions you disagree with.
I also think it is rather blatant here to anyone paying attention that you have provided less than a stellar example of ethical behaviour. Ready a bunch of contradictory statements by you and all the name calling is probably to blame.
Personally, I think you own Jay and Drew an apology, but that, too, is just my opinion.
Oh – and I don’t care how long you’ve been teaching anything for – your credibility is not contingent on those credentials here, Frances, at least not with me.
Sorry for the typos. Meant Reading and Owe.
🙂
Frances: I made absolutely no such suggestion. I was referring to comments made from the so-called ‘mob’….however, since you brought it up, I believe you did call Todd Carpenter ‘stupid’ and that isn’t fabricating fiction.
Rich Jacobson sums it up perfectly and I believe confirms Jay’s original intention of his post about the effects of what can happen to your branding…
“Denise Lones and her company are suffering dire consequences, but not because of what you personally perceive to be a mob attack, but by virtue of a decision they made to pursue this legal action.”
Question – if you’re beating a dead horse that happens to have stripes on it, can the heirs of John Bright get in on some royalties?
Just curious
BTW Jay – I LOVE the new header design!
@Inna. While I usually agree with you in this case I believe you are wrong. You are entitled to your opinion but I believe that not being a Realtor® may disadvantage you in understanding the COE and Standards of Practice and how it effects Realtors® on a daily basis. First of all it is not just a Code of Ethics but it is also contains Standards of Practice. Secondly whether you are face to face with another Realtor® or online the same interpretation applies. You can not hide behind “expressing an opinion”. The mere title of Jay’s piece is already, for the public, a swipe. Without going through his post line by line statements are made that denigrate another’s business.
All I can say through all of this is I miss Joe.
ditto Derek!
Amen.
For those interested in the lawsuit, Daniel just posted this:
In which I explain my decision to retire the stripes
Jay,
I look forward to our off-line, in-person, IRL conversation with Denise Lones about reputation management Friday morning at Phoenix REBarcamp. There’s nothing sweeter than taking the online conversation offline … and I can’t imagine a better venue than THIS REBarcamp.
I’m guessing there will be some interest in this session. #justsayin